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| | + | [http://www.mywikibiz.com/Special:Emailuser/Peter_Z. Email] |
| | == My Discussion Page == | | == My Discussion Page == |
| − | [[Image:Sunset-Road To Moora.jpg]]
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| | {{Greeting}} | | {{Greeting}} |
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| | '''Thanks'''-Peter Z | | '''Thanks'''-Peter Z |
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| − | == Research on Wikipedia’s Communist Propaganda Articles==
| + | ---- |
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| − | Is Wikipedia taking on a darker tone? Where are the ethical and moral issues involved in creating articles with old communist propaganda rhetoric. This part of Wikipedia is not encyclopedic work, pure and simple.
| + | == Wikikpedia Review == |
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| − | == The Balkan World According to Wikipedia ==
| + | Hi this is good - see if you can edit the talk pages of the parent article. If not, leave something in my talk directory and I will edit it in. Do you not belong to [http://wikipediareview.com/ Wikikpedia Review]? That is the place where all the dirt is dished, these days. There is a major scandal going on at the moment. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 11:56, 8 October 2009 (PDT) |
| − | According to Wikipedia if a Commander happens to lose 100 000 POWs after WW2, it is not that important. Sixty years latter it was established that they were murdered and place in old mine shafts, caves and forrests. The information is not to be mention in his biography as it is irrelevant.
| + | :: Hm mm, there seems to be a lot more of dirt being dished out than I realized. Thanks for that! [[User:Peter Z.|Peter Z.]] 19:49, 9 October 2009 (PDT) |
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| − | == Notes on References == | + | == Hi == |
| − | '''Contemporary views''' of Josip Broz that are clealy referenced:
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| − | *'''Zdravko Dizdar''' [http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=hr&u=http://www.isp.hr/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D66%26Itemid%3D38&ei=VUn1SvGFEcaDkAXR0vmfAw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DZdravko%2BDizdar%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den-us]: Croatian Historian (Institute for History in Zagreb): Partisan/Communist Repression & Atrocities in Croatia/1944th to 1946th - Document: Hrcak Portal of Scientific Journals of Croatia
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| − | '''Note:''' In Mr Dizdar's ''Scientific Journal''-[http://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=clanak&id_clanak_jezik=27516&lang=en Hrcak Portal of Scientific Journals of Croatia] states that Tito asked the "Croatian Home Guard" to surrender or face the consequences of not surrendering. After the war ended POWs who did not surrender were slaughter on mass, estimates are about 100 000 victims in total. | + | Hi - I have reorganised your article somewhat by placing a parent article in mainspace (click the link for 'parent article'), which will contain links to all the bad historyarticles in Wikipedia. I have moved and edited material in your article and placed it in the parent article. The child article will then be expressly about the former Yugoslavia and its history, or rather, about the treatment in the Wikipedia articles compared to the modern independent scholarly view. I have looked at some of the Wikipedia articles and you seem to have stumbled upon a real can of worms. Well done. I have edited the article to remove some of the strident turns of phrase you have used - to make a really strong and forceful case it is necessary to speak quieter, rather than louder. Regards [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 04:16, 4 October 2009 (PDT) |
| − | | + | : PS See my links about Bleiburg [http://www.mywikibiz.com/User_talk:Ockham/Wikipedia_%26_Political_Agendas#The_Bleiberg_massacre] - the edits by 'Direktor' are laughable. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 04:43, 4 October 2009 (PDT) |
| − | *'''BBC'''.UK/History Partisans: War in the Balkans 1941 - 1945 By Dr Stephen A Hart
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| − | The article is written in the post ''Berlin Wall'' world. The Wiki article '''does not''' have the [[BBC]] as it's '''source'''.
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| − | This encyclopaedic articles clearly state the dark truth about Tito and his Army-[http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/partisan_fighters_01.shtml#six Partisans: War in the Balkans 1941-1945]
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| − | *'''Dr Stephen A Hart''' is senior lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst. He is the author of The Road to Falaise: Operations 'Totalize' and 'Tractable' (Alan Sutton, 2004), and Montgomery and 'Colossal Cracks': The 21st Army Group in Northwest Europe, 1944-45 (Praeger, 2000). He is currently working with R Hart on The Ruins of the Reich: The Collapse of Nazi Germany in 1945, for Pearson Education
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| − | *'''Encyclopaedia Britannica'''-The article is written post ''Berlin Wall'' but it's thin in terms of information, but does not hold back on economic realities ''"At his death, the '''state treasury''' was '''empty'''"'' The Wiki article has Encyclopaedia Britannica under its ''Notes'' section as it's source, it might be just cosmetic.
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| − | *'''BBC''' UK/History by Tim Judah. The article is also written in the post ''Berlin Wall'' world. The Wiki article '''does not''' have the [[BBC]] as it's '''source'''.
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| − | *'''Tim Judah''' is a front line reporter for The Economist and author. A graduate of the London School of Economics and of the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University he worked for the BBC before becoming the Balkans correspondent for The Times and The Economist. During the Kosovo war he broadcast widely and wrote for the New York Review of Books, The Observer, The Sunday Telegraph and The Guardian Weekend magazine. Judah is also the author of the prizewinning The Serbs: History, Myth and the Destruction of Yugoslavia, published in 1997 by Yale University Press.
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| − | *'''Ivo Goldstein''': 'Croatia A History', a Mc Gill Queen’s University Press Publication.
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| − | :''“Self -management as system was only slightly more efficient than the Soviet model. It was bureaucratised and cumbersome and could not compete with Western economies. People could obtain so much free or for less than the market price (e.g. apartments) that they could be obtain without work. All this made the settling of accounts in the 1980s and in the post-socialist age more difficult.”''
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| − | :''“In Tito’s system no interest or ideas could be expressed in a truly democratic way. This did most harm where feelings of ethnic identity were concerned because their suppression led to growth of extreme nationalism. Furthermore, the economic failure of Tito’s system, most clearly expressed in the protracted crisis of the 1980s, left people who even if they were not poor, were disillusioned and open to manipulation by demagogues. Finally Tito’s practical solutions ensured that he would retain unlimited power during his life time, but foreshadowed the problems would come after his death.”
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| − | ''
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| − | This is a factual statement, written in Ivo Goldstein: 'Croatia A History'. Josip Broz and his fellow communist were committing economic management suicide. The Wiki article does not have Ivo Goldstein as it's source.
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| − | :The articles clearly state:
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| − | :1. Josip Broz Tito’s failure in adressing ethnic tensions of the former Yugoslavia;
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| − | :2. Failure in the economic management of the former of Yugoslavia;
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| − | '''Note''': Ivo Goldstein is a Professor at the University of Zagreb
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| − | The University of Zagreb [http://www.unizg.hr/homepage/] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Zagreb] (1669) is the oldest and biggest university in South-Eastern Europe. The university has 29 faculties, three art academies and the Centre for Croatian Studies. With its comprehensive programmes and over 50,000 full-time undergraduate and postgraduate students. The University is the strongest teaching institution in Croatia. It offers a wide range of academic degree courses leading to Bachelor's, Master's and Doctoral degrees in the following fields: Arts, Biomedicine, Biotechnology, Engineering, Humanities, Natural and Social Sciences.
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| | + | I can see this is all coming on nicely! I am not always around but feel free to leave a message. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 05:18, 21 October 2009 (PDT) |
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| − | '''Commission on Concealed Mass Graves in Slovenia'''-created by Government of the Republic of Slovenia.
| + | == Oh dear == |
| − | *'''Jože Dežman''': Slovenian Historian-Director of the National Museum of Contemporary History-Ljubljana (Slovenian) National Museum of Contemporary History- Slovenia
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| − | *'''Mitja Ferenc''': Slovenian Historian-University of Ljubljana
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| − | (Identification of Skeletal Remains of Communist Armed Forces Victims During and After World War II [http://www.cmj.hr/2009/50/3/19480024.htm Croatian Medical Journal])
| + | [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sir_Floyd Oh dear]. Toddst is an idiot, believe me. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 16:53, 31 May 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | '''Note''': '''Natasa Kandic''' [http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/interviews/24056/?tpl=304&tpid=147]
| + | == FYI == |
| − | Call for Cross-border War Crimes ‘Truth Commission’ By Pedja Obradovic-30 November 2009
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| − | ''A broad regional coalition of civil society associations from the countries of the former Yugoslavia is planning to strongly pressure the succession countries into forming regional commissions to establish the facts on war crimes and other severe violations of human rights.''
| + | FYI, see [http://www.mywikibiz.com/index.php?title=Yagan_Memorial&diff=121814&oldid=120900 this edit], which was prompted by an e-mail request to me. The page is unlocked now, so you'd need to make an edit, any edit, to re-lock it to yourself. -- [[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 20:03, 16 July 2010 (UTC) |
| | + | :Thanks MyWikiBiz! [[User:Peter Z.|Peter Z.]] 01:22, 17 July 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Natasa Kandic: Founder and Director, Humanitarian Law Center, Serbia and Montenegro.
| + | == Concerning Racism and Wikipedia == |
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| − | *'''Serbia''' to Uncover Mass Graves-Belgrade 13 August 2009 [http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/21609/]
| + | Peter, |
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| − | ''The Serbian Justice Ministry has announced that a state commission will be formed by September to mark out uncovered mass graves from 1944-46, daily Danas reported Thursday.The graves are thought to contain victims of Yugoslav leader Josip Broz Tito's Partisans.'' | + | As you might have noticed, the material on that page is by [[Gregory Kohs]]. If you haven't done so yet, I'm sure he would appreciate if you drop him a line or two. You seemed to have a special concern for the history rewriting and other Balkan complex issues. These should be a no brainer if people respect the principle of neutrality. Even if there were ten different views of the same events they should all be presented together with their sources. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't have the foggiest idea of what that means. They believe that there is one NPOV, and that one and only that one should be described as historic fact. Even more unfortunate is the inability of the sysops to uphold that principle, mostly because they are biased themselves. |
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| | + | My work is far from complete. There are other topics that I still have not approached. If you believe you have any material that fits into what I'm trying to develop, please feel free to edit and contribute. |
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| − | '''David W. Del Testa''' has a Ph.D. in History from the University of California at Davis.
| + | Sincerely, |
| − | The below referenced information is from 'Government Leaders, Military Rulers and Political Activists: An Encyclopaedia of People Who Changed the World (Lives & Legacies Series)’ by David W. Del Testa.
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| − | :''Yugoslavia under Tito was a curious combination of relative economic and cultural freedom and total political repression and control. The lack of political freedom made debate on the role of ethnic identity in Yugoslavia impossible. Tito’s regime had created temporary stability in a historically unstable region. Treated almost as a mythic hero in his lifetime, Tito’s image began to decay in the years following his death, undermining the legitimacy of the regime so connected to his cult of personality.'''
| + | Virgilio A. P. Machado |
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| − | David W. Del Testa’s statement succinctly sums up Josip Broz and his political life. One could say it is well balanced in the objective sense.
| + | [[User:Vapmachado|vapmachado]] <sup>[[User talk:Vapmachado|msgs.cw]]</sup> 02:17, 10 July 2011 (UTC) |
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| | + | == best == |
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| − | == Dr. Zoran Bozo: Tito ordered massacre of the Croatian population in May and June 1945th ==
| + | ciao, I am your old Italian friend of wikipedia: you are the best editor of ex Yugoslavia related articles! Your account -Sir Floyd- is signature which means guarantee of documentation and competence: congratulations for your articles in this site! Further, I have some relatives in Australia: I admire Australian people and I like Australian rules football--[[User:Ziogemmo|Ziogemmo]] 14:52, 16 January 2013 (UTC) |
| − | The purpose of this presentation is a contribution to the formulation ñ established chain of command and composition of the genocide perpetrators one sixth of the entire Croatian population in May and June 1945th year. In the preparation of his used exclusively partisan sources.[http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=hr&u=http://www.safaric-safaric.si/materiali_cro/bozic/20090624%2520IKA%2520Bozic%2520Tito%2520kontrolirao%2520genocid%2520na%2520terenu.pdf&ei=qpFFS5iJGsuHkQWm0uj8Ag&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAsQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTito%2Bkontrolirao%2Bgenocid%2Bna%2Bterenu%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den-us]
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| − | == Mr Dizdar's ''Scientific Journal'' Study Notes==
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| − | *''Item A''-'''Z. Dizdar''': Prilog istrazivanju problema Bleiburga... Senj. zb. 32, 117-196 (2005.)
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| − | Josip Broz Tito, vrhovni zapovjednik NOV i PO Jugoslavije i predsjednik Nacionalnog
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| − | komiteta oslobodenja Jugoslavije, uputio je 30. VIII. 1944.
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| − | "Posljednji poziv svim zavedenim slugama okupatora, i to svim hrvatskim domobranima, slovenskim domobrancima i zavedenim Cetnicima, da napuste okupatora i preda na stranu Narodno-oslobodilacke vojske do 15. rujna 1944, uz prijetnju da svi oni koji to ne ucine bit ce izvedeni pred ratni sud, sudeni kao izdajnici naroda i kaznjeni najstrozom kaznom te naglasavanje. Da o tom pitanju Saveznici ne ce da se mijesaju u nasa unutrasnja pitanja, te da ih nitko ne ce sprijeciti da kaznimo izdajnike naroda i slugu okupatora". (Vidi: N. BARIC, 2003, 496. / faksimil letka/).
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| − | '''page 121'''
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| − | '''Translated:''' Josip Broz Tito, the supreme commander of the NOV and PO-Yugoslavia and President of the National Committee of Liberation of Yugoslavia, sent on 30 August. 1944:
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| − | ''"Last call to all deluded servants of the occupiers and to all Domobrani Croatian, Slovenian Domobrancima and seduced Chetniks to leave the occupier and surrender to the National Liberation Army by September 15, 1944, with a threat to all those who do not, will be brought before a war court, judged as traitors and punished by the strictest punishment and concerning on the issue of the Allies, they will not interfere in our internal matters and that no one will not stop to punish the traitors of the people and servants occupying forces."
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| − | ''(See: N. BARIC, 2003, 496. / faksimil letka/) page 121
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| − | *''Item B''- '''Z. Dizdar''': Prilog istrazivanju problema Bleiburga... Senj. zb. 32, 117-196 (2005.)
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| − | Dubrovniku19, Mostaru, Sarajevu, Slavonskom Brodu, Vukovaru20, Osijeku, Slatini21, Pozegi, Banjaluci, Splitu, Kninu22, Gospicu,23 Senju24 i u nizu manjih mjesta, I ja je osobna identifikacija u tijeku), na sto je i Glavni stozer HOS-a ulozio 24. IV. 1945. javni protest "pred cjelokupnom javnosti hrvatskog naroda i cijelog svijeta".25 No, nisu samo likvidirani pripadnici HOS-a NDH, nego i brojni civili. Posebice su se okomili na ugledne i utjecajne ljude u narodu te intelektualce koji se nisu mirili s vlascu komunista, ili su smatrali da bi im u buduce bili politicki protivnici, medu kojima su posebice bili katolicki svecenici, kako bi nametnuli u potpunosti svoj utjecaj u narodu. Pri tom su se sluzili i posebnim organima terora kao sto je OZN-a (osnovana u svibnju 1944.) i postrojbe KNOJ-a (osnovan u kolovozu 1944.), koji ce krajem rata i u poracu provoditi obracun sa svim politickim protivnicima (stvarnim ili potencijalnim) vlasti komunista koja se uspostavljala te postaju glavni izvrsitelji brojnih uhicenja i likvidacija, najcesce bez suda, ali ce se koristiti i za ocuvanje vlasti.
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| − | Takav naputak je postojao od samog nacelnika OZN-e Jugoslavije, '''generala Aleksandra Rankovica''', koji je u svojoj operativnoj djelatnosti bio odgovoran jedino Titu. On je tako zapovjedio OZN-i za Hrvatsku "radite brzo i energicno i da sve svrsite u prvim danima”
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| − | '''page 128'''
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| − | '''Note:''' According to the research of ''Z.Dizdar'', Partisan General Aleksandar Rankovic [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandar_Ranković] [http://files.osa.ceu.hu/holdings/300/8/3/text/86-3-147.shtml] was only answerable to Tito (page 128). Aleksandar Rankovic play a major role in these executions and the only person that could to give Rankovic such an order, was Tito. The report also states that there were huge Camps housing POWs, amongst them were women and children. On page 183 it states that there were 24 000 children in the camps.
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| − | == Wikikpedia Review ==
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| − | | |
| − | Hi this is good - see if you can edit the talk pages of the parent article. If not, leave something in my talk directory and I will edit it in. Do you not belong to [http://wikipediareview.com/ Wikikpedia Review]? That is the place where all the dirt is dished, these days. There is a major scandal going on at the moment. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 11:56, 8 October 2009 (PDT)
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| − | :: Hm mm, there seems to be a lot more of dirt being dished out than I realized. Thanks for that! [[User:Peter Z.|Peter Z.]] 19:49, 9 October 2009 (PDT)
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| − | | |
| − | == Hi ==
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| − | | |
| − | Hi - I have reorganised your article somewhat by placing a parent article in mainspace (click the link for 'parent article'), which will contain links to all the bad historyarticles in Wikipedia. I have moved and edited material in your article and placed it in the parent article. The child article will then be expressly about the former Yugoslavia and its history, or rather, about the treatment in the Wikipedia articles compared to the modern independent scholarly view. I have looked at some of the Wikipedia articles and you seem to have stumbled upon a real can of worms. Well done. I have edited the article to remove some of the strident turns of phrase you have used - to make a really strong and forceful case it is necessary to speak quieter, rather than louder. Regards [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 04:16, 4 October 2009 (PDT)
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| − | : PS See my links about Bleiburg [http://www.mywikibiz.com/User_talk:Ockham/Wikipedia_%26_Political_Agendas#The_Bleiberg_massacre] - the edits by 'Direktor' are laughable. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 04:43, 4 October 2009 (PDT)
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| − | == Hi ==
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| − | I can see this is all coming on nicely! I am not always around but feel free to leave a message. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 05:18, 21 October 2009 (PDT)
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Email
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Thanks-Peter Z
Wikikpedia Review
Hi this is good - see if you can edit the talk pages of the parent article. If not, leave something in my talk directory and I will edit it in. Do you not belong to Wikikpedia Review? That is the place where all the dirt is dished, these days. There is a major scandal going on at the moment. Ockham 11:56, 8 October 2009 (PDT)
- Hm mm, there seems to be a lot more of dirt being dished out than I realized. Thanks for that! Peter Z. 19:49, 9 October 2009 (PDT)
Hi
Hi - I have reorganised your article somewhat by placing a parent article in mainspace (click the link for 'parent article'), which will contain links to all the bad historyarticles in Wikipedia. I have moved and edited material in your article and placed it in the parent article. The child article will then be expressly about the former Yugoslavia and its history, or rather, about the treatment in the Wikipedia articles compared to the modern independent scholarly view. I have looked at some of the Wikipedia articles and you seem to have stumbled upon a real can of worms. Well done. I have edited the article to remove some of the strident turns of phrase you have used - to make a really strong and forceful case it is necessary to speak quieter, rather than louder. Regards Ockham 04:16, 4 October 2009 (PDT)
- PS See my links about Bleiburg [1] - the edits by 'Direktor' are laughable. Ockham 04:43, 4 October 2009 (PDT)
I can see this is all coming on nicely! I am not always around but feel free to leave a message. Ockham 05:18, 21 October 2009 (PDT)
Oh dear
Oh dear. Toddst is an idiot, believe me. Ockham 16:53, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
FYI
FYI, see this edit, which was prompted by an e-mail request to me. The page is unlocked now, so you'd need to make an edit, any edit, to re-lock it to yourself. -- MyWikiBiz 20:03, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks MyWikiBiz! Peter Z. 01:22, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
Concerning Racism and Wikipedia
Peter,
As you might have noticed, the material on that page is by Gregory Kohs. If you haven't done so yet, I'm sure he would appreciate if you drop him a line or two. You seemed to have a special concern for the history rewriting and other Balkan complex issues. These should be a no brainer if people respect the principle of neutrality. Even if there were ten different views of the same events they should all be presented together with their sources. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't have the foggiest idea of what that means. They believe that there is one NPOV, and that one and only that one should be described as historic fact. Even more unfortunate is the inability of the sysops to uphold that principle, mostly because they are biased themselves.
My work is far from complete. There are other topics that I still have not approached. If you believe you have any material that fits into what I'm trying to develop, please feel free to edit and contribute.
Sincerely,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
vapmachado msgs.cw 02:17, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
best
ciao, I am your old Italian friend of wikipedia: you are the best editor of ex Yugoslavia related articles! Your account -Sir Floyd- is signature which means guarantee of documentation and competence: congratulations for your articles in this site! Further, I have some relatives in Australia: I admire Australian people and I like Australian rules football--Ziogemmo 14:52, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
