Difference between revisions of "Talk:Korcula Dialect"

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== Language evolution on the island (just a theory) ==
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'''Link to the actual article (this is a work page) is here: [http://mywikibiz.com/Korcula_Dialect KorculaDialect]'''
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Language spoken on the island up to becoming part of the Republic of Venice (1420) was the  - '''Dalmatian''' (Romance language) and '''Slavic''' - Chakavian  (Old Croatian). Written language was [[Latin]]. Post 1420 Venetian became ''Lingua franca'' on the island.
 
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* The interaction of theses three must have been interesting:
 
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<center>
 
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'''1.''' Venetian  '''2.''' Romance Dalmatian  '''3.''' Slavic  (Old Croatian-Chakavian)
 
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</center>
 
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The interaction of theses three laid down the foundation of the Korcula Dialect. In the era of the '''Black Plague''' extensive migrations to the island occurred during the Cypriote (1571-1573), Candian (1645-1669), and Morean wars (1684-1699) (between Republic of Venice and the Ottoman Empire). Refugees from the Ottoman Empire (which ruled the Balkans for centuries) arrived on the island.
 
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Quote from ''"The Land of 1000 Islands"'' by Igor Rudan:
 
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{{Cquote| However, the clashes between the Ottoman Empire and Venetian Republic produced extensive migrations from the mainland areas, especially from today's Bosnia and Herzegovina, to the eastern parts of the islands of Brac, Hvar, '''Korcula''', and Pag <ref>[http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articles/PMC2121596;jsessionid=D7FB2EB2AF6E1C5733100CA2C94C626F.jvm1 The Land of 1000 Islands] ''by'' Igor Rudan </ref>}}
 
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The new arrivals  to the island who were predominately Slavic (Shtokavian) speakers and must have put the Slavic speaks (Old Croatian Slavic - Chakavian '''+''' Slavic - Shtokavian) on the island in a '''majority'''. Interesting today Croatians and Serbs share this dialect. Venetian was still ''Lingua franca'' on the island and must have replaced Latin as the official written language.
 
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== Concerns ==
 
== Concerns ==
 
A large proportion of information (books,articles) concerning the former Yugoslavia reminded me of the Yugoslavian encyclopaedias of the 1970s. The encyclopaedias were written in the same style as the '''Great Soviet Encyclopaedia'''.  
 
A large proportion of information (books,articles) concerning the former Yugoslavia reminded me of the Yugoslavian encyclopaedias of the 1970s. The encyclopaedias were written in the same style as the '''Great Soviet Encyclopaedia'''.  
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=== VKokielov ===
 
=== VKokielov ===
  
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{{Cquote|'''Croatian''' is a South Slavic language spoken in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and neighbouring countries, as well as by the Croatian Diaspora worldwide. Linguists have called it a form of Serbo-Croatian language <ref>E.C. Hawkesworth, "Serbian-Croatian-Bosnian Linguistic Complex", in the ''Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics'', 2nd edition, 2006.</ref>, using the term invented by the ''Illyrian movement'' to underscore the grammatical and lexical closeness of the three standard languages across the shtokavian dialect area of speech; the same term was adopted by the federal Yugoslav government.  Notwithstanding this, the name ''Serbo-Croatian'' was not, in general, heard from shtokavian speakers. The two archaic Slavic dialects traditionally and perhaps arbitrarily ascribed to Serbo-Croatian, Chakavian and Kajkavian dialect are exclusively Croatian.  It may be noted that these dialects once spanned a broader area; chakavian was spoken throughout Istria and Dalmatia and kajkavian reached from Zagorje out to Zagreb.  But since the Turkish invasion five hundred years ago, shtokavian speakers have been moving west, displacing by various degrees the old speech.
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{{quote|'''Croatian''' is a South Slavic language spoken in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and neighbouring countries, as well as by the Croatian Diaspora worldwide. Linguists have called it a form of Serbo-Croatian language , using the term invented by the ''Illyrian movement'' to underscore the grammatical and lexical closeness of the three standard languages across the shtokavian dialect area of speech; the same term was adopted by the federal Yugoslav government.  Notwithstanding this, the name ''Serbo-Croatian'' was not, in general, heard from shtokavian speakers. The two archaic Slavic dialects traditionally and perhaps arbitrarily ascribed to Serbo-Croatian, Chakavian and Kajkavian dialect are exclusively Croatian.  It may be noted that these dialects once spanned a broader area; chakavian was spoken throughout Istria and Dalmatia and kajkavian reached from Zagorje out to Zagreb.  But since the Turkish invasion five hundred years ago, shtokavian speakers have been moving west, displacing by various degrees the old speech.
  
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The south Slavic linguistic question is brittle and complex.  The bloody, destructive wars of the 1990s put an end for good to the Illyrian idea of a Serbian-Croatian nation (together with the Bosniaks, whom the Illyrians called Serbs or Croats converted to Islam), and with it to the notion of a unitary language. Croatian is written in Gaj's Latin alphabet, based on Czech.<ref>http://www.library.yale.edu/slavic/croatia/dictionary/</ref> The same alphabet is used for Bosnian and Serbian. Statement by VKokielov (Wikipedia)}}
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The south Slavic linguistic question is brittle and complex.  The bloody, destructive wars of the 1990s put an end for good to the Illyrian idea of a Serbian-Croatian nation (together with the Bosniaks, whom the Illyrians called Serbs or Croats converted to Islam), and with it to the notion of a unitary language. Croatian is written in Gaj's Latin alphabet, based on Czech.UNIQ70ec0aadb4417dbf-ref-00000023-QINU The same alphabet is used for Bosnian and Serbian. Statement by VKokielov (Wikipedia)}}
  
 
* I ''like'' this! [[User:Peter Z.|Peter Z.]] 15:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)  
 
* I ''like'' this! [[User:Peter Z.|Peter Z.]] 15:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)  
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[[File:300px-Serbo croatian dialects historical distribution.png|thumb|right|800px|Western '''Balkans Slavic dialects''' (or languages) historical distribution in the 16 century.  
 
[[File:300px-Serbo croatian dialects historical distribution.png|thumb|right|800px|Western '''Balkans Slavic dialects''' (or languages) historical distribution in the 16 century.  
 
Blue is '''Chakavian''' whist green is West Shokavian and pink is East Shokavian. (''Map by Panonian'')]]
 
Blue is '''Chakavian''' whist green is West Shokavian and pink is East Shokavian. (''Map by Panonian'')]]
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== The Croatian and Serbian language Issue ==
 
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<div align="left">
 
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{| class="toc" style="border-right-width:2px; border-bottom-width:2px;"
 
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| &nbsp;&nbsp;
 
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| This is might be a '''base'''  for a future article (work in progress).<br><small></span></small>
 
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|}
 
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</div>
 
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It is my belief that the Croatian and Serbian labels started off as  terms to assert political elitism. This political frame work for elitism later with time became established as ethnic identities. This is sometimes referred to as a ''Constructed Identity''.
 
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Since we can’t distinguish Croatians from Serbians through the examination of DNA it seems that if there were any tribal divisions between Slavs in the Western Balkan region it would have to be in the area of language. This division is based on the principle of the existence of historical language markers left from the past that are present today (or another way of putting it “echoes from the past”).
 
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The main Slavic groups arrived as:
 
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* Tribes that spoke Old Chakavian Slav. This group mark the beginnings of the Croatian language.
 
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* Tribes that spoke Old Shokavian Slav.
 
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* Certain Slavic groups (that were physically close to each other) later started to integrate as one and created a third group: Chakavian-Shokavian Slav mix.
 
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Chakavian Slavs settled in today’s Dalmatian Hinterland and the Shokavian Slavs settled in today’s Kosovo. Later they started to interact spread and integrate with the inhabitants of the region that were there prior to their arrival.  This being mainly the Romans and others (i.e. Illyrians, Liburnians, Greeks).
 
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The third group was later heavily influenced by historical events of the Ottoman invasion (the Turks defeated the Serbian army in 1371). These group of peoples started migrating west as well as Shokavian Slavs (certain Shokavian Slavs groups started identify themselves as Serbs now). These late medieval migrations laid down some of the language dialects in the Western Balkans that we have today. An example of this is evident in today's modern region of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the old Republic of Ragusa (Dubrovnik) where the Slavic people within these regions became predominately Slavic Shokavian speakers.
 
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It was in this historical environment that the standardise language arrived (Serbo-Croatian) or it could be said '''enforced''' by governments. Thanks to the old Yugoslav and Austro-Hungarian education system communities now in the region started be influenced by standardise language. It is interesting that the issue of certain ''Croatian Dialects'' how little is mention of the non Slavic words that are present in there vocabulary i.e. Korcula Dialects.
 
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The '''first''' primary source mention of the Croatian identity in the Balkans was Dux Cruatorum Branimero ''or'' Prince Branimir inscription, c.''' 880''' AD from town of Nin-Croatia (Old Dalmatia).  In 1853 a Russian archaeologist Pavel Mikhailovich Leontjev discovered the ''Tanais Tablets''. The Tanais Tablets mention three men: Horoúathos, Horoáthos, and Horóathos (Χορούαθ[ος], Χοροάθος, Χορόαθος). They are written in Greek and are from the '''3rd century''' AD from the city of Tanais, today's Azov, Russia. At that time it had mixed Greek - Sarmatian (Iranian) population.
 
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The term Slav was first used by the Byzantines (i.e. Procopius-Byzantine scholar, Jordanes- 6th century Roman bureaucrat) and was written in the '''6th century'''  (cia. 550) in Greek (Σκλαβῖνοι-Sklabenoi). Later in Latin it was written '''Sclaveni'''.
 
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== War against the Croatian language on Wikipedia ==
 
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* Rat protiv Hrvatskog jezika na Wikipediji. [http://www.monitor.hr/clanci/srpsko-hrvatski-jezik-ne-postoji/38133/ Link here]
 
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----
 
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{{GKAnt}}
 
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{{GKAdBrite}}
 
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{{OMGlinks}}
 
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== References ==
 
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<references/>
 

Latest revision as of 09:43, 26 May 2015

Link to the actual article (this is a work page) is here: KorculaDialect

Concerns

A large proportion of information (books,articles) concerning the former Yugoslavia reminded me of the Yugoslavian encyclopaedias of the 1970s. The encyclopaedias were written in the same style as the Great Soviet Encyclopaedia.

  • William Benton, (publisher of the Encyclopedia Britannica), stated that: "about the second edition of the encyclopedia that the encyclopedia had a political bias and claimed that its purpose was a propaganda weapon". Sections of the Yugoslavian encyclopaedias were also used as a propaganda weapon to show the superiority of Titoism and the Socialist Yugoslavia to other societies and political systems.

The Croatian language has been changed by the modern language Serbo-Croatian (it was created in the 19th century/a constructed language). Additionally Slavitization of non Slavic regions (people in the new Yugoslavia ) was being carried out. These were the government polices of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and the Communist Party of Yugoslavia.

  • After the second World War (the Communists) were responsible for one of the greatest massacres of unarmed people of all times in Europe.
  • The regime removed ethnic populations (Germans, Italians & Hungarians) after World War Two. This information can be sourced from reliable scholars. (please read Titoism and Totalitarianism)

Information was and still is being presented to the world. An historical perspective of former communist Yugoslavia that was written by a Totalitarian political system.

Croatian language concerns

  • Note: The Croatian (Hrvatski) language belongs to the Southern Slavic language group. The overall labelling of the language as Serbo-Croatian is historically incorrect. Croatian predates Serbo-Croatian. The Serbo-Croatian language is a modern standard form that was created in the 19th Century. The Croatian language in fact goes back centuries. It is un-encyclopaedic to represent the language otherwise. Peter Z. 07:47, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Note somebody once stated:"Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) is a political term and not a scientific term." This could be possible Peter Z. 15:26, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

VKokielov

 
“ 		 
Croatian is a South Slavic language spoken in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and neighbouring countries, as well as by the Croatian Diaspora worldwide. Linguists have called it a form of Serbo-Croatian language , using the term invented by the Illyrian movement to underscore the grammatical and lexical closeness of the three standard languages across the shtokavian dialect area of speech; the same term was adopted by the federal Yugoslav government. Notwithstanding this, the name Serbo-Croatian was not, in general, heard from shtokavian speakers. The two archaic Slavic dialects traditionally and perhaps arbitrarily ascribed to Serbo-Croatian, Chakavian and Kajkavian dialect are exclusively Croatian. It may be noted that these dialects once spanned a broader area; chakavian was spoken throughout Istria and Dalmatia and kajkavian reached from Zagorje out to Zagreb. But since the Turkish invasion five hundred years ago, shtokavian speakers have been moving west, displacing by various degrees the old speech.

The south Slavic linguistic question is brittle and complex. The bloody, destructive wars of the 1990s put an end for good to the Illyrian idea of a Serbian-Croatian nation (together with the Bosniaks, whom the Illyrians called Serbs or Croats converted to Islam), and with it to the notion of a unitary language. Croatian is written in Gaj's Latin alphabet, based on Czech.?UNIQ70ec0aadb4417dbf-ref-00000023-QINU? The same alphabet is used for Bosnian and Serbian. Statement by VKokielov (Wikipedia)
 

„
 

  • I like this! Peter Z. 15:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

This is interesting history

by ip 83.131.67.175

  • Pavlović Bernardin, Dubrovnik, 1747.... Pripravljanje za dostojno reći svetu misu... u harvaski jezik pomnjivo i virno privedeno. Pokripljenje umirućih... u harvaski jezik popravi i prištampa... za korist naroda Harvaskoga... - he translated liturgy books from Latin to Croatian (harvaski). Everyone who understands South Slavic languages can see that this is Ikavian Shtokavian - never spoken by Serbs.

In history, Croatian language was called by a few synonyms: harvatski, ilirski, slovinski, dalmatinski. Slovinski is Ikavian Croatian form of the word Slavic.

  • Sforza Ponzoni, 1620, "dalmatinski ali harvacki” - Dalmatian or Croatian
  • Stjepan Cosmi (Cosmus), 1688, always translated illyricus as hrvatski (Clero Illyrico — klera harvaskoga; idiomo Illyrico —harvaskoga izgovora).
  • Filip Grabovac, Venice, 1749: "Cvit razgovora naroda iliričkoga ali arvackoga" (Illyrian or croatian people). "U Dalmaciji... se i jezik zva, kakonoti ilirički, pak slovinski, potomtoga arvacki i evo i danas. Tri su imena a jedan je isti jezik." (In Dalmatia... language was called Illyrian, or Slavic, or Croatian, so still is. There are 3 names, but the language is one).
  • Joakim Stulli, Dubrovnik, 1801, Lexicon latino-italico-illyricum, - word 'illyrice': “Slovinski, harvatski, hrovatski, horvatski”. Once again Illyrian is synonym for Croatian.


Translating from Croatian to Serbian

by ip 83.131.67.175

Serbian writers were translating from Croatian to Serbian until the 19th century:

  • Georgij Mihajlovic, 1803. Aždaja sedmoglava: "S dalmatinskoga jezika na slaveno-serbskij prečistjeno" (translated from Dalmatian to Serbo-Slavic). He didn't mention Vid Došen, a writer of the original book. Here Dalmatian is synonym for Croatian.

Opposite example:

  • Ivan Ambrozovic, 1808: "Proričje i narečenja, sa srbskog jezika na ilirički privedena, nadopunjena i složena" (...translated from Serbian language to Croatian...)
  • Vuk Karadzic, Narodne srbske pesnarice, Vienna 1815: "Pesne su ove... jedne štampane po Hercegovačkom dijalektu, a druge po Sremačkom..., da sam sve pečatao Hercegovački (n. p. djevojka, djeca, vidjeti, lećeti, i dr.), onda bi rekli Sremci: pa šta ovaj nama sad nameće Horvatskij jezik".

These songs... some are written in Herzegovinian dialect, the others are in dialect of Srijem... written all in Herzegovinian (some ijekavian examples), people of Srijem (Serbs who moved to Srijem from Raška at the end of the 17th century) would say: why is he giving us Croatian language?

Linguistically

  • English: Where are you going?

Slovene - Kaj: Kam greš?

Croatian - Ča: Di greš? Kamo greš? Note: Kamo & Gdje are linguistically not compatible.

Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Gdje ideš?

Serbian - Što: Gde ideš?


  • English: I am going to the west.

Slovene - Kaj: Grem proti zahodu.

Croatian - Ča: Gren va zahod.Note: Gren & Idem are linguistically not compatible.

Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Idem na zapad.

Serbian - Što: Idem na zapad.


  • English: What are you doing?

Slovene - Kaj: Kaj delaš?

Croatian - Ča: Ča dilaš (delaš)? Ča činiš? Note: Ča činiš? (delaš) & Što radiš? are linguistically not compatible.

Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Što radiš?

Serbian - Što: Šta radiš?


  • English: I'm sleeping in the bed.

Slovene - Kaj: Spim v postelji.

Croatian - Ča: Spim u posteji. Note: posteji & krevetu are linguistically not compatible.

Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form)- Što: Spavam u krevetu.

Serbian - Što: Spavam u krevetu.


  • English: Light the fire.

Slovene - Kaj: Zažgej ogenj.

Croatian - Ča: Užgi oganj. Note: oganj & vatru are linguistically not compatible.

Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Upali vatru.

Serbian - Što: Upali vatru.


  • English: My word is saying...

Slovene - Kaj: Moja beseda poveda...

Croatian - Ča: Moja besida povida... Note: besida/povida & riječ/govori are linguistically not compatible.

Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Moja riječ govori...

Serbian - Što: Moja reč govori...

Small example:
English: I want to go.
Cro Ča: Želin pojti.
Cro Što: Želim ići.
Serb/Montenegr Što: Želim da idem.

Note: A group of modern Croatians and Serbs share Shtokavian (as far I know). Peter Z. 08:09, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Western Balkans Slavic dialects (or languages) historical distribution in the 16 century. Blue is Chakavian whist green is West Shokavian and pink is East Shokavian. (Map by Panonian)
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