User talk:Centiare

Overall "Standards & Rules"

Karl, I have examined the site pretty carefully today, and I am seeing as a result of that the following "priority" issues that we should address as quickly as possible (before much more content is added):

Income formatting in the Infobox

Karl, please take a look at this question. --MyWikiBiz 13:10, 15 November 2006 (PST)

Info Boxes

We need to devise final Infobox Standards for the following entities:

• Public for-profit corporations
• Private for-profit firms (which may be satisfied above)
• Non-profit entities
• Human beings (whether they are business officers, celebrities, artists, or job-seekers)

I think the for-profit infobox_company works equally well for either public or private firms. There's only a few major sections that need data elements - public information is merely a subset within certain sections. All one needs to do for private firm is eliminate unnecessary data references within those respective sections.--Centiare 14:05, 15 November 2006 (PST)

In terms of other info_boxes, the sky really is the limit. As I indicated to you, the Directory potential is much greater than just operating enterprises and/or individuals. For example, with the semantic tagging components, there's nothing stopping anyone from creating a Lexis/Nexis facility, or any other type of database application.

That being said, it would be quite exhausting to try and create every type of infobox one might conceivably need. I'd rather try and harness the wiki open collaboration model to encourage others to help design & publish infoboxes. They should be subject to the same review stds as WP before they are release to the general public. --Centiare 14:18, 15 November 2006 (PST)

I agree with you in principle. I just think to get a really good headstart on populating this database with the information of "interested first adopters", they should have at least the three basic Infoboxes to choose from -- (A) For-profit corporations, (B) Non-profits, and (C) Human beings. If these are pretty well designed from the get-go, then that minimizes the likelihood of massive re-formatting by all our active members at some point down the road. If I knew how to create a Box format from scratch, I would be happy to do it, but currently I don't. Should that be my next self-improvement task?

For example, for "Human beings", I think it would be appropriate to have Birthplace, Birthdate, Marital status, Children, NAICS code of primary occupation, Standard Occupational Code, Employer, Title, Residence location (at least city, maybe street address), Copyrighted works, Skills, and Hobbies. --MyWikiBiz 19:14, 15 November 2006 (PST)

OK, I'll try and finish up NPO & Human infoboxes this week. Armed with 3 basic std infoboxes, we'll at least have infobox style guidelines for others to adapt/expand for different applications. --Centiare 07:30, 16 November 2006 (PST)

Check your e-mail for my comments on Infobox Person, Personal, and Resume. --MyWikiBiz 20:31, 14 December 2006 (PST)

Attributes

Do you think we should standardize Attributes with multiple words in the Underscore_Between_Words fashion? I think it will help all users if we have some consistency there. P.S. I have taken that approach with Image names, too. --MyWikiBiz 07:41, 13 December 2006 (PST)

I've been creating all Attributes with underscores between words. I caught the same thing yesterday - if you don't use underscores in the template/article tags themselves, they still references the proper attributes. They just don't show the underscores in the summary report at the bottom of the page.

Speaking of style, please let me know if you like the placement of infobox_Person elements. For instance, I moved residence down below image. Centiare 07:47, 13 December 2006 (PST)

Geo Location

Karl, as I was driving to work today, I stopped into a car wash. It then hit me that we really, really should include the latitude/longitude coordinates field in our Infoboxes, even for Persons, I suppose. The main reason is that I truly envision that eventually Centiare will fully encorporate a "Google Maps" type of application, and this will be the best way to pinpoint businesses, and of course, all of their branch/store/franchise locations. Do you agree? If so, I would like to leave it to you to modify the templates to include the "correct" lat/long labels. --MyWikiBiz 07:40, 7 December 2006 (PST)

Done. Simply add Template:Mapit-US-cityscale to any page, along with the specified coordinates. Then, add the semantically tagged coordinates to the reference element in any infobox. See Centiare for example.

Questions:

• For the lat/long semantic attributes, do we want decimal coordinates (as used in the template), or traditional? Right now I'm using traditional.
• What level of granularity do we need? I used Huntington Beach for Centiare, but it only provides a general view. Centiare 09:29, 7 December 2006 (PST)

Personally, I prefer the decimal method of coordinates. I'll bet that they would work better in the triple-search tool (as one could just enter the coordinate detail as deep as they care to go -- no decimal, a tenth, a hundredth, etc.). I imagine that writing an ASK query for degrees, minutes, and seconds might be a pain in the butt, but writing ASKs for linear, numeric decimals would be a relative cinch. Positive and negative numbers are also more easy to build a query around than N, S, E, and W. Also, decimal just seems so much more "machine-friendly", and that's the whole point of semantic tagging -- get human labor out of the equation.

Done. Note the human readable form used for display. This technique is similar to using shorter product/service descriptions while utilizing full NAICS descriptions for semantic tags. Centiare 11:36, 7 December 2006 (PST)

Granularity, I'm not sure what you mean? I think each user/editor can be encouraged to get as specific as they are comfortable with. If a person doesn't want to show which house they live in, they can probably plot the specific coordinates for the center of their neighborhood, or the city hall of their postal address city. Me, I don't seem to mind pinpointing my house, and it's kind of fun drawing out those decimal coordinates to the fifth or sixth place, to try to nail it. Once you get the Centiare page changed to decimal coordinates, I will try the Template:Mapit myself on various pages. Looking at the Template now, it seemed a bit intimidating and maybe overkill with all the external mapping options. --MyWikiBiz 11:17, 7 December 2006 (PST)

I wouldn't concern myself with the template itself. Just referencethe template from within an article with the decimal coordinates - as shown at the bottom of the Centiare page.

Infobox Person

Take a look at Carl Sagan -- there was a pretty comprehensive "Infobox Person" over at WP. I think that will do nicely for any "people" who want to be in Centiare. Another question, though -- when people want to take "ownership" of their article on Centiare, it will be just like the corporate process, right? They'll prove it's themself, and then the main space article gets cut and pasted to "their" Directory space? --MyWikiBiz 20:35, 16 November 2006 (PST)

Yes, the process is the same. In fact, all individuals, living or dead, who have commercial value/rights, should be only be placed in the Directory namespace. That means John Wayne, Marilyn Monroe, etc (ie their images are copyrighted and their estates generate income) should be placed under Directory, while Shakespeare, Newton, et al should be placed in the Main page area.

All living people should be under Directory since they have resumes, CVs, etc. I guess it gets tricky for US Presidents, since presumably they're not looking for another job, but OTOH Senators/Reps/Generals almost always join private sector firms in DC.

The basic rule-of-thumb is that the Directory namespace should be used for advocacy, in the strict sense that 'ownership' rights exist for property/name/image, etc., and therefore, owners don't have to be neutral.

There's no reason to place them first in the Main page area and subject them to open editing; again, they own their image. If an editor wants to create an entry on someone's behalf, fine. Turning over exclusive edit, or enabling group edit privileges, for the respective Directory entry, will be no different than any other entity. It's a std Centiare admin function once the ID is validated. --Centiare 07:34, 17 November 2006 (PST)

Rules of Style - Titles

And I think we need to devise Rules of Style for:

• Names of human beings (am I Greg Kohs, Gregory Kohs, Gregory J. Kohs, or Gregory James Kohs?)
• Names of companies (is it International Business Machines Corporation, International Business Machines Corp., IBM Corporation, IBM Corp., or IBM?)
• Occupational titles (the semantic search is really thrown off when someone might be "CEO", "Chairman", and/or "CEO and Chairman" (or, "Chairman and CEO"; or, "CEO & Chairman" with an ampersand))

Without establishing early and firmly some rigid and comprehensive structures that work well, we're going to be facing potentially massive re-formatting in three months' time, updating the work of many, many different visitors/owners. --MyWikiBiz 13:41, 15 November 2006 (PST)

Agreed. With regards to IBM, et al, this is a good example of the need for redirects. (It's also the reason why the info box has a "legal name" element as well eg Karl Nagel & Co. vs Karl Nagel & Co., LLC.)

In reference to names/titles, if they don't have their own page/article or they're not captured as a data element, then I don't see the need for consistency. That is, if foo uses CEO and bar uses Pres & CEO, who cares?

See IBM key people as an example. Now, if titles were being captured, it would be another story. --Centiare 14:05, 15 November 2006 (PST)

DOH! We are tracking titles. However, since they are subjective, there's no good way of enforcing consistency. From a search & reporting standpoint, one merely has to search on key_person1, 2, etc. regardless of the respective titles to get a listing of who are key people. (That is, click on the mag glass & eliminate the person's name - you'll get all key_people1, 2, etc.) Again, see IBM as an example of this facility. --Centiare 14:12, 15 November 2006 (PST)

A "Style Guide" might merely say that, ideally, a person should be accorded one title, if possible, to optimize semantic searching. The more that users stick to this guideline, the more likely their data will be "found" by people using Centiare's search utility. Furthermore, if in doubt about the "preferred" ranking of assigning titles (and what words and acronyms to use), the following list could/should be used to make uniform the many differences that appear in the working world:

• Chair (as opposed to Chairperson, Chairman, Chairwoman, etc.)
• CEO (as replacement for Chief Executive Officer, Executive Director, President, etc.)
• CFO (as opposed to Chief Financial Officer, Controller, etc.)
• COO (as replacement for Chief Operations Officer, Senior Operations Manager, etc.)
• CIO (as opposed to Chief Information Officer, Senior Technologist, MIS Director, etc.)
• SVP (as opposed to Senior Vice President, Executive Vice President, Regional Director, etc.)
• VP (as replacement for Vice President, Senior Manager, etc.)
• Manager (general middle-management catch-all title)

Adherence to such a "Style Guide" should by no means be considered mandatory, nor a perjorative assessment of any person's "actual" title at their company. It is merely a mechanism to make semantic searching more productive for more Centiare users. If only 3 companies call their CIO the "Data Ninja", that's really cute, but not very useful to Centiare users who are looking for "CIO" types of personnel in the Denver area. --MyWikiBiz 19:33, 15 November 2006 (PST)

Would you like to create the Title style guide? --Centiare 07:30, 16 November 2006 (PST)

It would be my pleasure to do so. --MyWikiBiz 11:02, 16 November 2006 (PST)

Corporate logos

I tried to upload the IBM corporate logo (copied from Wikipedia -- let them sort out the copyright issues), but the Centiare server said that .PNG was an invalid format. Do you have any comments about how/whether/why/what we should do about corporate logos and other images? --MyWikiBiz 13:49, 15 November 2006 (PST)

My hosting guru is working on it as we speak. It should be fixed by tomorrow, then we can start uploading different files (jpg, pdf, doc, xls, ppt). This is one of the open issues I mentioned last week. --Centiare 14:09, 15 November 2006 (PST)

NAICS 2 and 3

Karl, what about Portal:Information and the fact that "IBM" doesn't show up in the Sector Listings, because IBM lists a "51xxx" NAICS code as a secondary code, not primary? Don't you think users will want to be able to see all companies that match to a NAICS, even if secondary or tertiary code? (Personally, I think three NAICS code levels should be enough, but who's to say that we should stop there?) Anyway, I tried to revise the "ASK" code, but failed. --MyWikiBiz 19:47, 16 November 2006 (PST)

Good catch. I tried to run a quickie report including both naics1 & 2, but it only seems to work on naics1 OR 2 OR 3... (I left it at 2). The documentation for ASK is located here. I'll have to read through it again, a little closer this time, but I'm pretty sure it should be able to generate the reports we need. --Centiare 21:11, 16 November 2006 (PST)

Questions & Problems

Infobox

Take a look at the editing code on Directory:Gregory_J._Kohs. Why is the "residence" field info not rendering in the infobox? --MyWikiBiz 06:29, 3 December 2006 (PST)

Thanks for making the changes to the infobox. I guess it demanded a semantic tag? --MyWikiBiz 04:44, 4 December 2006 (PST)

Actually, a lot more fundamental than that: while the existing infobox_person had a reference to 'residence' in the definition list, it didn't have a 'residence' variable within the actual template itself - simply an oversight from the original author. I just had to add a residence variable, along with contact/reference variables for the semantic tags. The template itself is the first place one should look if Directory pages aren't rendering properly. Centiare 07:16, 4 December 2006 (PST)

This is a reflection on my continued inadequate understanding of the details of constructing and checking on Infoboxes in their original code. I'm going to really have to spend some time learning more. Either that, or just give up the technical stuff to the experts and start working on promotion/marketing . . . more in my skill set. --MyWikiBiz 08:32, 4 December 2006 (PST)

I'm a big believer in specialization. I think you now have a good understanding of how things work. Rather than take the extra step & become proficient at development, it might be a better use of your time to focus on marketing/sales.

I was reviewing your Tutorial entries and they look very informative. This is the type of walk-through guideline style we will need to (verbally) explain the working mechanics of the site. Combined with the ability to articulate the business rationale & (world-wide) info distribution opportunities, you'll be a great evangelist. Centiare 08:53, 4 December 2006 (PST)

It's going to be easier to see when you've made a comment to me if you direct them to MyWikiBiz talk page, rather than the one at Directory_talk:Gregory J. Kohs. I'm always signed in under the MyWikiBiz account, so that will signal me when I have new messages. --MyWikiBiz 18:19, 3 December 2006 (PST)

My mistake. I commented to your gallery experiment, and then kept posting there instead of to your user a/c. Centiare 07:16, 4 December 2006 (PST)

Whoa -- why did this mess up the Infobox? --MyWikiBiz 10:13, 13 December 2006 (PST)

ASK

Why doesn't Carl Sagan appear in the ASK Sector Listings part of Portal:Educational_Services? I'm confused. --MyWikiBiz 18:39, 3 December 2006 (PST)

It might be helpful to take an extra moment to see if you can resolve some of these questions first eg template-residence, ASK-person, et al. ASK was searching on company_name instead of person_*_name, as well as city instead of birth_city, etc. The key to most problems is in the details - this is true not only of semantic tags, but templating. Centiare 07:46, 4 December 2006 (PST)

Again, my ignorance of the detailed architecture gives way to "run crying to Karl" when confused. I will try to get more accustomed to these devilish details. My query, though, does bring us to an interesting point -- do you think that our NAICS Portal ASK framework should be expanded to include things like People? And (ignorance again), is such multi-referencing possible within ASK? (I'll predict that the answer is "yes".) --MyWikiBiz 08:32, 4 December 2006 (PST)

Hehe. Of course - if we use NAICS as occupational categories, then resumes, artist/actor listings, etc all become suitable search criteria within the Portals. There's a reason Tim Berners-Lee & other top thinkers know that semantic tagging is the future. Once a piece of data is captured and is machine readable to a specified level of granularity, you can do anything you want with the info.

Btw, remember that ASK can be run from anywhere, so users aren't limited to searching on NAICS categories. (Though that is the preference with Portals.) For example, someone could easily run an ASK query for all deaths on December 20. Centiare 08:59, 4 December 2006 (PST)

Take a look at the bottom of Portal:List. Is there a way to build this ASK query, so that it's not just showing "Companies" that have tagged NAICS_Code1, but any page that has done so? --MyWikiBiz 10:23, 11 December 2006 (PST)

ASK filters are additive; that is, each additional requirement restricts the results. To broaden the results, take out the respective restrictions - in this case, company_name.

Once again, I'm missing something. Why doesn't Church of the Loving Shepherd appear in Portal:List, once I've saved CLS with the NAICS_Code1 tag? --MyWikiBiz 06:47, 14 December 2006 (PST)

You had company_name as a filter. Do not become a programmer;-0 Btw, I also added the nonprofit_name attribute tag to your church listing. Centiare 06:52, 14 December 2006 (PST)

I beg to differ! On the Portal:List ASK query, I thought I (we?) removed the Company_name filter, so that the list would find all "entities" (as I re-labeled it) with NAICS_Code1 tags. I'm fine with the advice to not become a programmer, but just make Portal:List work for all entities, please. ;-) --MyWikiBiz 09:55, 14 December 2006 (PST)

Sorry about that. I had looked under NAICS 81 which had 'company_name' within the ASK query. The general Portal query just needed to be re-cached ie edit/save. Btw, I took out 'genre' in both the NPO & company infoboxes; it's probably how WP was trying to deal with industry types. Your religion tag was just duplicating the NAICS title. Centiare 10:09, 14 December 2006 (PST)

What Links Here

Karl, why do you imagine that the result of the ASK query in Portal:Real Estate does not automatically show up in the "What links here" for What links here for Pinnacle?

Don't get all sidetracked with this, but it makes me wonder. Does the ASK query fail to impact the "What links here" feature? --Centiare Co-Developer 10:22, 15 January 2007 (PST)

No idea. If you check this ASK report, all the links from the query show up in what links here. Centiare 14:48, 15 January 2007 (PST)

I see that, and that's good. What I'm saying is that it doesn't seem to "go the other way". That is, when you're considering the articles that APPEAR in an ASK result, when you check "What links here" to the article, the page with the ASK form doesn't register. It's not the end of the world, but it just makes it more of a challenge for the "custodian/manager/advocate" of Pinnacle Realty to get some good cross-links INTO his Directory page. (See how I just squeezed in another link to Pinnacle? I'm shameless.) --MyWikiBiz 19:21, 15 January 2007 (PST)

For the sake of internal link promotion, I think we should just encourage users to add an "Internal Links" section to Main Space articles that they want to link back to their Directory pitches. --MyWikiBiz 05:55, 16 January 2007 (PST)

If there is room for my 2 cents in this discussion, here goes: I disagree with encouraging an Internal links sections in main space articles. It is just duplicating what Wikipedia does and is, non semantic. The ASK query function promotes users to tag there own articles appropriately to automatically get displayed on main space (a thing of beauty). This should also motivate users to create main space articles and add an ASK query. See Cigarette with the Attribute:Keyword query. The search engines are working in some way that is not completly understandable to us. The engines will catch up or they already have. The more comfortable users become with semantic tagging and start imagining all the endless possibilities:

• more page creation
• longer visitor lengths
• more traffic
• higher page rank
• higher site rank
• a successful semantic mediawiki

If all of this happens then one backlink at Centiare is golden.--OmniMediaGroup 07:39, 16 January 2007 (PST)

SATIRE ALERT!!

Nobody asked you your opinion, Omni. If you continue to butt in on our Talk page discussions, we will ban your account. We are trying to build a directory, here. ...Oh. Wait. Sorry. This isn't Wikipedia, is it? ;-) --MyWikiBiz 09:59, 16 January 2007 (PST)

Tag Policy

Ok, I think I'm slowly catching up here. First point to MWB: I think what you were seeing is the mirror effect of 'contributor to' (directory side) & 'has contributor' (article side). If you use FULLPAGENAME in ASK, then it's only going to pick up the relationship value with the particular page name.

Btw, one thing I've come to realize is that we don't necessarily need both sides ie if only one side has an entry, the other can get results of what links to it by running an ASK query. Of course, if both sides have entries, ASK queries can be run on either side.

Which gets us to OMG: should a tag go on the article side or directory side? If the tag goes on the directory side, what's to stop users from tagging whatever articles they want? (I thought we only want ERB articles attributed?) Looking at the cigarette example, is this what we want regular non-protected main space articles to look like?

Now, if we limit tags to ERB articles, someone could still run a false tag from their directory listing, but it wouldn't show up on the article side until the ASK query was refreshed. Since it would be protected (ie only the author/sysop can update it), the false link(s) would then be discovered). This would make policing abuse a little easier.

We need to think through two things: do we want mirror relationships when we can get away with one? This cuts down on extra effort; as we've seen with 'friend of' & 'personal interest', we can still run cool ASK queries to get the results we want.

Second, if we do encourage one sided, where does it go? I sort of vote for the article side, since it would be under control of the ERB. Contributors would only have to run an ASK query from their directory listings to get their respective attributions.

One last thing: for user->directory 'owner of' or directory->directory 'manager of' tags, these "private" areas are outside our concern (to the extent they don't violate copyright/libel), so if they want to mirror tag their entries, more power to them. Centiare 08:11, 16 January 2007 (PST)

Phew! That was a mouthful, Karl; but all worthwhile. I have just a few bullet-point replies:

• My apologies for taking away "one side" of some of the two-way relations yesterday.
• I think tags should go on the Main Space article side.
• I'm starting to agree with OmniMediaGuide, that we don't really know what's going on with Google, so our internal linking policy should not be predicated on that riddle.
• We need to divorce ourselves from the notion that ASK queries don't update unless the page is edited. I'm seeing all over the place, lately, that they DO update themselves. For example, the ASK query on Portal:Manufacturing was last updated December 8th; but it includes listings of Nanoventions and SuperbGreece, which didn't come into being until January. Granted, there's some kind of delay in how long it takes for qualified results to "show" themselves, but there's no denying that these queries do eventually crawl for more results and refresh themselves. Maybe it's deep within MediaWiki, that it spiders the site's ASK queries once a day or something.
• The ASK query on the Cigarette article is sort of how I envisioned our "power users" would start modifying the Main Space. It's not pretty. And, it might encourage long "laundry lists" of different ASK queries appearing on the same page. But, I think if our "policy" remains: "Main Space is community edited content", then people who INSERT such queries have to realize the next person who finds it too ugly or too self-serving can just delete it.
• If you recall, one idea I had for "controlling" this proliferation of ASK queries was to establish a two-part policy:

1. An ASK query in Main Space must be relevant and useful to the article.
2. An ASK query in Main Space must produce at least 3 results; otherwise, create more content or wait for such content to be created.

This would help to keep Main Space looking cleaner, and when ASK queries DO get installed by users, they'll actually be serving a "collective" need, and not just self-serving one person's Directory bias.

I think that's all I have to say now. Calling Karl. --MyWikiBiz 10:16, 16 January 2007 (PST)

Special Pages

Longpages

Is there any way to get the links on Special:Specialpages to include Directory space pages in their results? --MyWikiBiz 04:44, 4 December 2006 (PST)

Allpages. Just select Directory from the list. This is also a good place to search for images, templates, etc. Centiare 07:16, 4 December 2006 (PST)

I think here you may have misunderstood me, Karl. Allpages isn't what I desire. What I'd like to do (as an example) is look at Special:Longpages, but be able to see lengthy Directory pages in the results. If you look at Special:Newpages, you see that when you get the mainspace results, you have the option of then looking at different spaces, including Directory. Would be still even better if you could search ALL space for long pages. --MyWikiBiz 08:32, 4 December 2006 (PST)

Got it. Both newpages & longpages are standalone .php modules. I can create a new extension by adding the optional search component in newpages to a Centiare version of longpages and then tie it back into the Special pages summary view. Another thing for my todo list. Centiare 09:21, 4 December 2006 (PST)

Update Took the lazy approach - just hacked Special:Longpages so that it reports Directory listings as well. If the list ever gets unwieldy, I can add the newpages selection box. Centiare 12:24, 4 December 2006 (PST)

LinkSearch

Another great module that Wikipedia has that Centiare apparently has not yet loaded is "Search web links", which allows you to do a global search of the Wikipedia architecture for ALL outbound hyperlinks, based on a domain-level query. That's how we discover that Wikipedia has about 3,000 outbound links to Wikia.com. --MyWikiBiz 09:59, 4 December 2006 (PST)

It appears Special:Linksearch is not part of the most recent MW distribution. I could whip up something similar if you really need it, or we could wait until it shows up in the next release. Centiare 11:29, 4 December 2006 (PST)

List of preferred/approved semantic tags

Once we have finalized the four or five "root" infoboxes, would it make some sense to have a Tutorial page for users to see a master list of all the "Centiare-approved" semantic labels? I want to make sure that users are not confused and quickly realize the big mistake it would be to erroneously tag their infobox with "Key People1:=", when it should be "Key_Person1:=". Users are, of course, free to make up their own tags, but they should be aware of the correct spelling and typographical construct of the best tags. --MyWikiBiz 10:52, 6 December 2006 (PST)

Good idea. Both Tutorial & Help pages will expand as we add more information. Feel free to set up the initial infobox overview/list/policy. We can build from there. Centiare 10:57, 6 December 2006 (PST)

Clarifying

For starters, I've been so busy as an advertising copywriter since my internship there, that I hadn't bothered to change the bio.

What I was contacting you about, which you seem to have ignored in your message, is that you cannot copy Wikipedia articles, even just passages of Wikipedia articles, without acknowledging them as being under the GFDL-license.

Wikipedia articles are of course collaborated on by multiple, often hundreds of people each. Each person owns the copyright to whatever new content they add, whether it's a new paragraph, or just a punctuation mark. It's odd, but that's how it works. But anyway, it's all released under a free license, but one that needs to be acknowledged.

Articles on your site like Latitude, Longitude. Portable Document Format, Directory:Wikimedia Foundation, Directory:The Walt Disney Company/Mickey Mouse, Directory:Carl Sagan, etc are all under this license.

You can use the map images, as they were created by the CIA, and thus are public domain. You should also credit the creators of images like this, which are under copyright by multi-national corporations. -- Zanimum 07:09, 8 December 2006 (PST)

Nicholas, thank you for the follow-up. Two issues: (a) copyright, and (b) fair use. Right now, we're just cleaning up demonstration entries - including the copyright notice itself. (It's from another commercial information site we control.)

We may decide to allow GFDL for non-Directory listings. (However, our goal is to not compete with Wikipedia as an excellent NPOV resource, so we don't anticipate a lot of energy being expended on the Main pages.) As to the Directory entries you noted above, these will either be modified/edited to such an extent to stand-alone as new material or qualify under fair-use provisions.

Either way, the handful of demonstration entries are merely that: placeholders to demonstrate the (1) user-owned Directory features; and (2) semantic tagging capabilities. All new material will be unique to Centiare.

By the way, congrats on your internship. If you haven't already seen it, we have a welcome message to Wikipedians explaining our background and objectives. For all I know, you may be working for one of our media clients up in the Toronto area. Centiare 07:47, 8 December 2006 (PST)

Extensions Wanted

General

It sure would be nice to know if Centiare could accomodate the following extensions, which would be amazingly useful for the right kinds of Centiare users:

• The Google Analytics embedder, so users could keep track of traffic statistics to their favorite articles. I'm curious if multiple users can code the same article, and also how it "appears" on the page (if at all).
• The YouTube video embedder. Video would really make Centiare pop. (Don't know if this kills the server space, or not, though.)

These are two that my sister and I thought would be really interesting to offer, but I'm sure there are a half-dozen more that would be just as neat. --MyWikiBiz 15:20, 10 December 2006 (PST)

These types of simple extensions are very easy to add. Go ahead and put together a list of others that you would like to see. As for the two above, youTube is ok, but analytics doesn't appear to be working - you can check the author's own site as well. Do you have an example where it's working? Centiare 07:38, 11 December 2006 (PST)

No, I don't have any example of the Google Analytics for MediaWiki working anywhere. Just saw it on their list, and went ga-ga, thinking of the opportunity of its use. It looks like this post suggests that you'd have to add it to one of the MediaWiki "skins" to get it to work, but presumably, only within that skin. --MyWikiBiz 08:13, 11 December 2006 (PST)

That's a modification to the core extension that requires a hack to the underlying MediaWiki code. You never, ever want to do that. Well, maybe in extreme circumstances where one knows exactly what's happening and controls the output. I've done a few to suit very specific purposes, but they're tested extensively and well documented. You definitely don't want to do something like that for some generic hook extension.

I'm going to go ahead and remove the extension+call. If you see it working anywhere, we can go ahead an add it at a later date. In the future, we should probably verify an extension is working before adding to a wish list or installing it (my fault - I assumed you had been using it.) Centiare 08:33, 11 December 2006 (PST)

wikEd

Here is the Wiki editor (newer version) that I had installed in Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cacycle/wikEd

Just installed in Centiare and it seems to work as is. Great for wiki lists and tables. Also strips html code.

Wondering if this could be customized to add the script (function)

To create: [[Directory:Subject|Subject]]

when Subject is highlighted. --OmniMediaGroup 06:16, 22 December 2006 (PST)

I just added both User:Centiare/monobook.js and User:Centiare/wikEd.js and it seems to work nicely - I'm seeing all sorts of interesting edit features as I type this comment. Why don't you go ahead and include wikEd.js to your User page and let me know if it works for you as well

PS I followed the same procedures trying to get navpop to work, but a quick Google search revealed that no one outside of MWF controlled servers (projects) appeared to be able to get it to work. (It works fine for me at WP when signed in under my account.) Centiare 07:17, 22 December 2006 (PST).

I went ahead and loaded wikEd.js for both of you - hope you don't mind. Let me know if it looks like it's working ok. Centiare 08:41, 22 December 2006 (PST)

DOH! Now I get what you want. Let me look into it - if it can't be configured via monobook.js, then it would require a hack to the underlying wikEd.js. (Which, incidentally, I went back and removed since it's being externally served for now.) Centiare 10:18, 22 December 2006 (PST)

Maps

Speaking of extensions, which Google maps did you want to include to pinpoint your address from lat/long? The Yahoo map link from MWB looks like it's correctly identifying your address. (The Yahoo map ID is '4', whereas Google is just reading the coords - can you find their option code?) Btw, your pop-up ad appears to interfering with the page rendering. Centiare 08:08, 11 December 2006 (PST)

Google Zoom Level is discussed as a "trial and error" right here. Was your question meant to say, which (of Map, Satellite, or Hybrid) form of Google Maps did I want to include? Actually, what do you mean "include" -- as in, an actual map rendering in the Infobox? I don't know if we need to go there yet. --MyWikiBiz 08:26, 11 December 2006 (PST)

Any of them. The link to the Yahoo map shows your location. Of course, we can get the same thing from Google from your address, but that sort of defeats the purpose of the coordinates. As to placement, we can provide links or we can embed (like the youTube extension). Centiare 08:37, 11 December 2006 (PST)

Citation templates

I would like to see Karl enable the 10 citation templates that are found at Wikipedia. I believe that these 10 should cover any attempt any user should have to factually cite and article or Directory page. I currently updated Directory:Gregory J. Kohs with a {{cite news}}, but it isn't rendering. --MyWikiBiz 10:08, 2 January 2007 (PST)

Done. Please see Centiare:Citation_templates - let me know if there's anything else you need. Centiare 11:32, 2 January 2007 (PST)

Greeting template

Karl, your greeting found on User_talk:Eshock still isn't quite ready for prime time. If they wish to duplicate the "Personal" box, the code for it is invisibly "buried" within the greet template. Further, I'm not sure the "Personal" box is looking exactly the best it could. Namely, the "Married / Name" portion looks a little clunky. --MyWikiBiz 12:26, 14 December 2006 (PST)

Added a link to my user page to pull up the code. As for infobox_personal, all fields are optional. That is, other than the box, header & colors, the look/feel is all based on your element stream from your Directory listing. Please play around with it till you feel satisfied with the results.

Btw, we have another user sign-up. Do you want to send them a greeting using the template? Also, you can edit the template itself here. Centiare 12:36, 14 December 2006 (PST)

Karl, leaving a message as a Sysop on a user's User page (as opposed to the Talk page), as you did here, renders that user "blocked" from owning/editing his own user page. We have to be VERY careful not to do that. Is there a way to "revert" that ownership now for User:Ebcdick? --MyWikiBiz 09:19, 2 January 2007 (PST)

Cities & States

I don't think this is a good edit. First, the likelihood that particular governments of cities are going to step into Centiare anytime soon is limited. So, why not leave cities, for the time being, in Main space? Furthermore, even when city governments take ownership of the space, I thought it will be entitled [[Directory:City of Jackson, Michigan]], not [[Directory:Jackson, Michigan]]. The government can't/shouldn't take ownership of the history, geography, economy, and personal experiences that are related to the city. Final note -- we can't just make Directory or Main space articles for "Jackson", and just assume that will be the ONLY Jackson (the one in Michigan). There are Jacksons in Tennessee and Mississippi, and probably a good number of other states. --MyWikiBiz 18:39, 18 December 2006 (PST)

While admittedly a little tenuous, I disagree on all counts:

1. All incorporated cities (thereby qualifying for Directory status), no matter how small, have some sort of Web page or city directory. For example, we did a road trip last summer through the Midwest, and little towns with populations under 5k had info sites. Bigger cities definitely have tie-ins to their visitor bureaus or CofCs. So to say that they can't or shouldn't have control is incorrect.
2. I think naming conventions should always be the name first, then any qualifying information. For example, Directory:Jackson, Michigan. Right now, we only have the one Jackson, so I guess I got lazy.
3. Once we have multiple listings (cities and otherwise), such as Jackson, this will entail the creation of disambiguation pages no different than WP.

When in doubt as to placement, think about the entity rule. Even though it may seem non-intuitive, at first, to place governments in the Directory namespace, at the end of the day, these public entities most definitely have pride of ownership about their towns and are possessive about their economics, history, etc.

I guess we can monitor the situation if users post info to the Main page for places like NYC, but then again, when does it fall under the purview of the visitor&conference bureau? The whole point of the Directory is for APOV - you don't think cities like Jackson want to sell & advocate their towns? Centiare 07:33, 19 December 2006 (PST)

I went back and modified Jackson, Winter Park & West Chester in both the Kohs main body and infobox. Note that we use the city name only as an attribute tag - state identity is achieved with the accompanying state attribute name.

I think our general rule is that for major cities, they can listed without the state eg New York City. Second tier cities like Huntington Beach (pop 200k), if they are entered first, enjoy the same privilege. Therefore, Huntington Beach, New York would need the state qualifier if & when entered into the directory. Smaller towns should always be entered as city, state as a matter of policy. Centiare 07:52, 19 December 2006 (PST)

State Relations

I've noticed that you have (are making) some Relation tag changes. Let me know when they are "set in stone" and I'll work on the rest of the United States. Thought it would be good practice for me before the KJ Kitchens project.--OmniMediaGroup 07:44, 15 January 2007 (PST)

I should have the state relations worked out within the day - it's parallel with developing overall guidelines. The balance between attributes, relations & categories addresses not only proliferation, but ASK queries as well. Centiare 08:18, 15 January 2007 (PST)

Regions

Karl, I see that you're adding "Region" attribute to Directory:Milson Printing. Thing is, there's more than one "Orange County" in the USA -- eight by my count, plus an American-style Beijing suburb called such. If you're going to create it, I think we should model Wikipedia, and make it (more correctly) Directory:Orange County, California. But, that brings me to the point that Milson Printing is (fictionally) in Memphis, TN. I'll come up with a Region for that.

• I was thinking that counties would follow the city name examples (see above). That is, the most familiar names would be listed independent of states - all others would be listed with the states. Example: Huntington Beach and Huntington Beach, New York. Likewise, The OC and Orange County, Florida. Centiare 06:53, 9 January 2007 (PST)

I wouldn't say that OC, CA is that much more notable than OC, FL, that it deserves "the" Orange County directory spot. But, maybe that's just me, since I lived in OC, FL for 6 years. Seems like we could defer to Wikipedia. If you type in "Orange County" there, you come to a disambiguation page, which suggests that each OC should get its state identification. --MyWikiBiz 08:41, 9 January 2007 (PST)