Difference between revisions of "Talk:Criticism of crowdsourcing"

Latest revision as of 13:09, 21 December 2014

See Archive 1 for October 8-11, 2008 content.

Now Is The Wiki Of Our Discontent

The 1st Part of the Discontention

JA: There is a fundamental social wrong that hides at the core of Wikipedia, a wrongness that is complicit with the worst of its content, but far more its cause than its effect. We need to get at that underlying wrongness if we are going to comprehend, much less remediate, the problematic phenomena that we find in the Wikipedia domain. Jon Awbrey 09:12, 12 October 2008 (PDT)

JA: That is one of the reasons why I continue to have reservations about taking the concepts of "crowdsourcing" and "user-generated content" as a basis for our critique of Wikioid phenomena. Doing that only plays into the dodge of content-blindness (analogous to snow-blindness) that keeps so many would-be critics running around in circles of futility until they get frostbyte and die in the drifts. So let's watch out for that. Jon Awbrey 09:22, 12 October 2008 (PDT)

BK: To my mind, the architectural error in WMF-sponsored projects is that Jimbo adopted an inappropriate regulatory mechanism for an educational enterprise. Jimbo adopted and maladapted the Hammurabic Method of Social Regulation which (I claim) is a monumental and tragic error. The primary tool of governance (blocking and banning) corresponds to Bill of Attainder — a corrosive, ill-conceived, and ill-advised regulatory device. It was problematic when Hammurabi defined it some 3750 years ago, and it remains problematic today. Whoever came up with that foolish idea should go jump in the lake. —Moulton 11:16, 12 October 2008 (PDT)

JA: Thanks for writing a short paragraph. That encourages me to try and work through it bit by bit.

Yes, the fundamental social wrong is a built-in feature of the social-technical architecture, or "SocWare", for short. And the buttons for blocking and banning are certainly a big part of it.
Yes, the fundamental social wrong might be called a bad case of Hammer-Rabies gone viral, but I don't think that's the be-all end-all of it.

JA: I think that we have to keep asking the question — If the SocWare is so maladapted to the aims of Education And Information, and yet Wikipediots persist in promoting it, then what is the SocWare well-adapted to do? Jon Awbrey 11:40, 12 October 2008 (PDT)

BK: The Hammurabic Method of Social Regulation (including the specific version of it adopted by Jimbo) is optimally adapted to sustain a Drama Engine. —Moulton 13:05, 12 October 2008 (PDT)

JH: Hammurabic code like this one …

If any one bring an accusation against a man, and the accused go to the river and leap into the river, if he sink in the river his accuser shall take possession of his house. But if the river prove that the accused is not guilty, and he escape unhurt, then he who had brought the accusation shall be put to death, while he who leaped into the river shall take possession of the house that had belonged to his accuser.

JH: That not very helpful … I would suggest some thing more simpler, like the golden rule and the 10 commandments. Joehazelton 16:25, 12 October 2008 (PDT)

JA: Moulton, I cannot tell if you are using the word "drama" in the ordinary sense of the word or in line with the way that Wikipediots abuse the term, but you seem to be saying that the Wikipedia System is good at producing this "drama" and that Wikipediots keep cranking their engine because they desire this "good". Jon Awbrey 20:05, 12 October 2008 (PDT)

BK: I am using the term "drama" in the sense of dramaturgy as a vehicle for embedding educational, cultural, or moral lessons within a dramatic literary storyline featuring interacting characters (e.g. protagonist and antagonist). It is my thesis that Jimbo unintentionally devised an efficient drama engine by hamhandedly misdesigning Wikipedia's social regulatory mechanism. As I see it, Jimbo's fundamental mistake was adopting blocking and banning as the principal tool of governance, thus reprising a cyberspace reification of the classical (i.e. biblical) drama of scapegoating and alienation. —Moulton 05:50, 13 October 2008 (PDT)

JA: It sounds like you are trying to use the word "drama" in the ordinary sense and trying to avoid abusing it in the Wikipidgin Manner of Speaking (WP:MoS), but I don't get the sense that you are being consistent in that attempt.

JA: At any rate, your Theory Of The Archdrone's Mind (BK:TOTAM) that ascribes unintentionality to the design of the hive is a theory that I view with suspicion. The way I see it, BK:TOTAM is nothing but a variation on the theme of WP:AGF. As such, I have to regard it as naive beyond measure. Jon Awbrey 06:52, 13 October 2008 (PDT)

BK: I'm using "dramaturgy" in the sense of the Bardic Arts, full stop. It is my thesis that Jimbo did not conscientiously and deliberately set out to create the Internet's most popular Drama Engine when he conceived, adopted, and blessed the emerging social dynamics of Wikipedia. —Moulton 10:20, 13 October 2008 (PDT)

JA: People sometimes use the word "drama" to denote any series of actions and events that are filled with emotion and suspense, as in "the dramatic developments on Wall Street this week". Wiki-Pidgin speakers use "drama" as a wiki-pejorative term that means pretty much the same thing as every other wiki-pejorative term, to wit, "We No Like It". But you seem to be saying that you do not intend those looser usages.

JA: Sometimes people use the word "drama" to describes any kind of Amateur Participatory Improv Psychodrama (APIP). Maybe you are using the word that way, but for my part I do not call that Art.

JA: Dramaturgy, in the sense of the Dramatic Arts, demands Dramaturges, in the sense of Dramatic Artists. These include playwrights, actors, directors, producers, stagecraft artists and managers, and so on and so forth as the credits roll. Are you seriously trying to tell us that you are crediting Jimbo & Company with that sort of Art? Jon Awbrey 11:02, 13 October 2008 (PDT)

BK: In concert with the Bardic Arts and Barsoom Tork Associates, I've published a song about it: Hey JUDE —Moulton 11:04, 13 October 2008 (PDT)

BK: Jon, I think you are conflating a dramatic production with a drama engine. Think of a drama engine as the analog of a physics engine in a pinball game. Jimbo gave the world a free-wheeling drama engine — a venue where arbitrary actors can don costumes and synthetic personas and engage in improvisational street theater with each other. The result is a post-modern, pre-apocalyptic theater of the absurd. —Moulton 14:14, 13 October 2008 (PDT)

JA: Thanks for finally admitting that you are NOT using the word "drama" in the ordinary sense of the word but more in line with the way that Wikipediots abuse the term. "Drama Engine" is a neologism that you just made up, so of course the notion of a drama engine cannot figure in the ordinary meaning of the word "drama". Jon Awbrey 19:06, 13 October 2008 (PDT)

Dear Abbie,

I tried shouting "theatre" in a crowded fire but it did not improve The Review — and then the Firemen dashed on the scene and I discovered that my Drama Engine was no match for their Fire Engine.

Just call me,

All Wet @ Fahrenheit 451

BK: Jon, I did not coin the term "drama engine" as you can discover by reading about first generation drama engines, lame though they may be for the purposes that game designers have in mind. Jimbo's Unintended Drama Engine (JUDE) operates at what I imagine would correspond to a third generation drama engine in the game world. —Moulton 21:59, 13 October 2008 (PDT)

JA: I apologize for accusing you of Originality, but your esoteric gamer-tech geek-world reference, however amusing, only serves to prove my point that the new-fangled notion of a "drama engine" forms no part of what enters the mind of the average person in the street when he or she hears the word "drama".

JA: But let us put the definition of drama aside for now. You are trying to reduce the bardic and dramatic arts to a kind of Accidental Stage Setting (ASS). And that is nothing short of absurd. It is true that people can learn from a climactic absurdity, but what they must learn is the absurdity of the collective premiss. Jon Awbrey 02:46, 14 October 2008 (PDT)

BK: I don't think we are all that far apart, Jon. I've been thinking about the use of dramaturgy in education for many years now, and I've been following the snail's pace at which the game culture has incorporated dramaturgy into the design of games. What I noticed about WMF sites is that, while Jimbo did not intentionally set out to craft a post-modern theater of the absurd, that's what WP and sister sites have evolved to become. A secondary question is what (if anything) the participants in Jimbo's Masquerade Ball are learning through their participation in that happenstantial psychodrama stage. Moulton 10:35, 14 October 2008 (PDT)

JA: If all you mean by "drama" is something like "the affective element in education and inquiry", then that has been a factor in my studies for as long as I can remember, but I think it would be a whole lot clearer just to say the latter. I have participated in the mystiques of enough psychodrama and street theater to know the agonies, the thrills, and the uses thereof, but I do not call that Drama in a literal literary sense.

JA: It is possible to learn from almost any experience that we undergo — adverse, artful, or otherwise — but we have to be capable of reflecting on the experience to the point where we can extract the lesson, and that is a step beyond mere mystified participation in absurdity. Jon Awbrey 11:18, 14 October 2008 (PDT)

BK: What I've been thinking about is the artful construction of a custom-crafted drama optimally designed to midwife an epiphany of a particular individual at a particular juncture in their lifelong learning journey. I am thinking of stories like Peter Falk as the grandfather reading the story of the Princess Bride to his grandson, or Arabian Nights or Aesop's Fables or the Parables of Jesus or this ditty by Bing Crosby. —Moulton 12:56, 14 October 2008 (PDT)

JA: I'm not sure I understand all this "Hallo, Jude!" stuff you keep going on about, but it begins to dawn on me that it's you, you, my friend, who are in the grip of some Will To Drama that you'd fain e-body in, oh, let's say, Barry's Intense Drama Engine (BIDE), and that you project this project of yours on your favorite local authoritarian, Jimbo Wales, who knows it not. Jon Awbrey 06:08, 15 October 2008 (PDT)

The 2nd Part of the Discontention

JA: By way of marshaling our critical resources on behalf of the end in view, let me recall the charge that I sounded at the top of this topic, after which I will sort through the intervening discussion in a game try at racking up the points of agreement and disagreement.

JA: There is a fundamental social wrong that hides at the core of Wikipedia, a wrongness that is complicit with the worst of its content, but far more its cause than its effect. We need to get at that underlying wrongness if we are going to comprehend, much less remediate, the problematic phenomena that we find in the Wikipedia domain. Jon Awbrey 09:12, 12 October 2008 (PDT)

Points of Consensus

Although we continue to have difficulty identifying it, or even thinking of an apt name for it, many of us seem to agree that there is a fundamental social wrong that hides at the core of Wikipedia's Social-Technical Architecture (STA). Unless we can diagnose this bug with more exactness, attempts to "fix Wikipedia", whether in-place or in a new place, are most likely going to continue being futile. Jon Awbrey 05:36, 14 October 2008 (PDT)

We seem to agree that the social sanctions known as "blocking" and "banning", as implemented in the corresponding social powers and technical utilities, or something about the distribution of those powers and utilities, are telling indicators of the fundamental social wrong in Wikipedia. Jon Awbrey 05:52, 14 October 2008 (PDT)

Points of Dissensus

Hard to pin down, but something about the character of drama and the role of drama, however cast, in the Wikipedia System. Jon Awbrey 06:20, 14 October 2008 (PDT)

Points for Expansion

JA: I am out of time for pursuing this right now, but one of the points that we need to probe a little further has to do with the function of blocking and banning within the cult(ure) in question. Words like alienation, excommunication, exile, scapegoating, and shunning have been used in the past. What is really going on is not any form of physical transportation, but a filtering out of messages from identifiable sources, a form of "killing the message", if not exactly the messenger. Jon Awbrey 07:50, 14 October 2008 (PDT)

JA: There really are such things as noise, spam, and vandalism, and so there are legitimate reasons for filtering and ignoring certain classes of messages. When the functions of filtering and repression become dysfunctional for any error-controlled system, however, is when valid feedback about the system and its environment is habitually being ignored. Jon Awbrey 07:50, 14 October 2008 (PDT)

BK: See also Bill of Attainder, Immurement, and Safeword. —Moulton 13:36, 14 October 2008 (PDT)

Made Glorious By This Sum Resummed A Fork

JA: All in the fullness of time … Jon Awbrey 09:14, 14 October 2008 (PDT)

Dysfunctional Inquiry Programs (DIP's) : Slip Slidin' Away

JA: The phenomenon that I wish to address under this head is one that I noticed many years ago, one that I observed arising especially acutely in the W(P+R) context, and one that I tried to tackle under numerous heads at The Wikipedia Review, but like every other topic that risks diversion from the WR Soap Opera In Regress Everlasting (WR:SOIRE), all of those inquiries fell like lead balloons on leaden ears.

JA: Vide Dysfunctional Inquiry Programs (DIP's) : Slip Slidin' Away.

JA: Maybe it was something I said? Jon Awbrey 14:40, 15 October 2008 (PDT)

BK: In my experience, the inquiry process fails when the would-be inquirer departs from rigorous skeptical inquiry by failing to examine all the evidence with a critical eye and by failing to reason in a coherent and scientific manner to valid conclusions and insights. —Moulton 15:44, 15 October 2008 (PDT)

You know the nearer your destination

The more you're slip slidin' away

— Paul Simon

JA: The particular phenomenon that I'm talking about here occurs when all the right evidence and all the right reasoning lead a person right up to the door of what, by rights, would be the inescapable conclusion, and yet … and yet … the fear of losing a cherished illusion keeps that person from walking through that door. Jon Awbrey 19:16, 15 October 2008 (PDT)

BK: Do you mean the inescapable conclusion that there is no hope for Homo Schleppians or Western Civilization because we lack the critical mass to evolve from a political culture to a scientific one? —Moulton 19:59, 15 October 2008 (PDT)

JA: No, I mean that there's very little hope for Some People until they ¡¡¡ Wake Da Φυκ ↑ !!! Jon Awbrey 03:54, 16 October 2008 (PDT)

BK: Oh. Well Gurdjieff and Ouspensky pretty much established that most people are sleepwalking their way through life. Moulton 07:51, 16 October 2008 (PDT)

Future use of this page

I would like to encourage everyone using MyWikiBiz for various discussions to please adhere to a policy of "don't derail pages". You are welcome to have conversations about the origins and ownership of Wikipedia Review, as you are welcome to have conversations about the identity of various cross-dressing British officials. Just have these conversations on their own pages.

As for the future of the "new forum" that we've been discussing, I would like to draw everyone's attention to my current mindset, as expressed here. Thanks, everyone! -- MyWikiBiz 16:22, 12 October 2008 (PDT)

Wikipedia - why it needs a warning label

This is a work in progress, and I will try to improve it later, but you can read it if you like. http://catonine.virtue.nu/thoughts/wikipedia.html I tried to make it like Lir's one, but I hope on more important topics, with a more relevant worldview. Blissyu2 02:26, 13 October 2008 (PDT)

Again, the way to do this is to create an article Port Arthur Massacre (Wikipedia) in which you can reference these claims and have other people investigate them. This (if your claims are correct) would form part of a series of articles here which are about the Wikipedia articles, where there is evidence of bias or corruption in those articles. Ockham 04:53, 13 October 2008 (PDT)

I have done that already [1] (it does probably need shortening however). Of course, that is not the sole aspect of my web page, and only represents one example of one of the major problems. There is no doubt in my mind that Wikipedia's article on that topic is, basically, a deliberately false article, as it does not, as an article as a whole, agree with either the recognised truth of the issue nor what the majority of people say, and deliberately false statements have been added to the article, primarily by Thebainer, with enormous control of the article, initially by Robert Merkel but later taken over by Thebainer. I was going to put all of that in a nice readable format in that section on my web site criticism. Again, however, that is just one aspect of what is wrong with Wikipedia, and just one example of truth changing. SlimVirgin's truth changing of the Lockerbie bombing article on Wikipedia is just as notable. Unfortunately, I am not an expert on the Lockerbie bombing so can't get into specifics of what she did, only that it is obvious that she did change truth. Blissyu2 04:29, 14 October 2008 (PDT)

Thank you

I want to thank this page for underscoring in my mind the importance of the new criticism project to be a closed group of content generators, and for it not to begin in wiki format. -- MyWikiBiz 08:50, 13 October 2008 (PDT)

MY suggestion for the format, your criticism should be in three parts..

First part: A page, where any one may submit criticism, in public, in which all discuss it in a free for all, no holds bar discussion. No rules less one... No attack on each other just their augment.

Second part: After a time, a committee, would review the article and decide to add/delete some or all of said article to to a protected part where it will stand.

Third part, I would have a wide open form, "boogie check" no rules less Defamation, Liable. All comers welcome, a thunderdrome of ideas regarding wikipeida so all have say.. from the crazy loon to the highest Ivory tower pigeon.Joehazelton 15:55, 13 October 2008 (PDT)

Whatever happened from this?

Maybe I missed it, but 6 years later and I don't see a website created. If you did make one, you certainly didn't tell me, nor did you write it here. I feel a bit upset at not being invited if you did create it. :( Blissyu2 (talk) 13:06, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

P.S. I am not completely sure why, but the website I was using for about 10 years mysteriously disappeared. Thankfully it was archived happily, so here is my Criticism of Wikipedia article: https://web.archive.org/web/20130310011711/http://catonine.virtue.nu/thoughts/wikipedia.html Blissyu2 (talk) 13:09, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Difference between revisions of "Talk:Criticism of crowdsourcing"

Latest revision as of 13:09, 21 December 2014

Contents

Now Is The Wiki Of Our Discontent

The 1st Part of the Discontention

The 2nd Part of the Discontention

Points of Consensus

Points of Dissensus

Points for Expansion

Made Glorious By This Sum Resummed A Fork

Dysfunctional Inquiry Programs (DIP's) : Slip Slidin' Away

Future use of this page

Wikipedia - why it needs a warning label

Thank you

Whatever happened from this?

Navigation menu

Page actions

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Personal tools

Navigation

semantic

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@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-==Notes & Queries==
+<p>See '''[[Talk:Criticism of crowdsourcing/Archive 1|Archive 1]]''' for October 8-11, 2008 content.</p>
+<br>
-'''JA:''' I guess my first criticism would be a worry about the name "crowdsourcing".  It clangs me wrong somehow.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 12:12, 8 October 2008 (PDT)
+----
-'''NR:''' My thoughts: Do I even have real-world credentials? Now there's a problem. Why not have a message board ''and'' a wiki? There are good and bad points to having either one.
-'''NR:''' On the thought of what domain name to use: I think <s>MimboJimbo.com</s> (no, that is a very bad idea) something that implies what we're doing (Wiki..something) would be suitable. (Well OK taking the piss out of Jimbo, we can do that in other ways without using the domain name to do it, it also doesn't seem professional, why I thought that was a good idea, I'll never know) —&nbsp;[[User:Nathan|<span style="color:#3971DE">'''Nathan'''</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Nathan|<span style="color:#3971DE">'''talk'''</span>]])</sup> <sub>/ <em>19:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)</em></sub>
-'''JA:''' I've grown weary of fixating on (1) Wikipedia (2) Wikipedia Personae.  Yes, most of our concrete data and hard experience comes from those sources &mdash; though I did see the very same dynamics in Citizendium despite the one bug fix that Sanger tried to implement &mdash; but we need to view that data and experience as cases under generic concepts, and focus on the genus not the individuals.  So "MimboJimbo" would probably lead us down the wrong path.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 12:30, 8 October 2008 (PDT)
-'''PW:'''  I'm afraid that I really don't like "MimboJimbo" either, as it gives a rather "Monty Python" impression and is also inherently negative.  If we want to be taken seriously, we've got to have a neutral name which doesn't imply a result (we already know that the result is going to be negative, but we don't need to come out and say that...Best to let people  read the evidence and make their own minds up).  So, the actual name of the site should be neutral, rather scientific, yet precise.  I've suggested "WikiAnalysis" (first choice) and "WikiReader" (second choice)...However, there must be other possibilities.
-'''BK:''' There is a professor at Kansas State University who does ethnographic studies of cyberspace cultures.  One of his classes focused on the phenomenon of YouTube.  He recently gave a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPAO-lZ4_hU presentation of his work] at the Library of Congress.  It's worth watching, mainly for the example of his kind of scholarship. —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 20:15, 9 October 2008 (PDT)
-:First seven minutes are very engaging.  I'm left with the question, "where did Wikipedia make the mistaken turns away from this magical sense of joyful empowerment?"  I'll continue later.  Bed time now. -- [[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 20:33, 9 October 2008 (PDT)
-::WP made the same mistake that humankind made back in the days of Hammurabi.  They adopted a lamentably idiotic community regulatory mechanism.  They adopted a regulatory mechanism ideally suited to games or drama, but ill-suited to an academic enterprise.  There really isn't any excuse for it.  It was a fundamental failure of leadership.  —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 21:32, 9 October 2008 (PDT)
-:::Well, I finished the video.  It was really well done, and I wish I had the time to be able to put things like that together.  Oh, and Lindsay Ahalt (53:45) sure is a cutie, but looks to have no natural sense of rhythm.  (I say that just to prove I got through the whole video.)  Here's my serious take-away: the feel-good YouTube collage we just watched is all about celebrating personal expression.  And that's wonderful for something like the video art form.  But it's horrendous for something like the creation of a reputable, accurate encyclopedia.  That is Wikipedia's problem.  Too many people are using it as a canvas for personal expression. -- [[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 21:11, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
-::::Michael Wesch studies other cyberspace phenomena besides YouTube (as do many other academics).  Judith Donath has studied cyberspace cultures for over a decade.  We referenced one of her studies in the WV Ethics Project.  What's important is the academic methods of study, not the particular corner of Cyberspace that any one study concentrates on.  Part of the problem with W-R is that the reviews there lacked academic cojones, gravitas, or demeanor.  —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 21:58, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
-'''DT:''' Have you reserved any .org or .info domains, in case the project turns into a noncommercial informational resource rather than a commercial entity? [[User:Dtobias|Dtobias]] 20:44, 9 October 2008 (PDT)
-:Dan, you are hilarious.  This ".org" thing of yours is like your Internet calling card, like the slashed "Z" of Zorro.  If we're going to have free "play money" poker tournaments on the site, we should get the ".net" domain, so that we're in compliance with the UIGEA.  (lol) -- [[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 19:48, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
-'''AJD:''' Personally I'd favor a forum with a more positive focus.  But if you're going to stick with the negative, what exactly is it that you're criticizing?  Criticism of "unethical, unprofessional practices of information management on the Internet" seems too broad.  Maybe limit it to so called "user-generated" content on the Internet? [[User:Anthony|Anthony]] 13:10, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
-==Consider the Crowdsource==
-'''GK:''' The only ready synonym for "crowdsourcing" that comes to my mind is "user-generated content", or "Web 2.0".  Nathan, you have credentials, in that you have a location, a job, and schooling, which is really all I'm looking for.  I think MimboJimbo is way off... I was just mentioning which domains I actually hold claim to.  Really, I'm thinking that the domain should be something simple and descriptive (but still available), along the lines of "critiquesofthecrowd.com". -- [[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 13:37, 8 October 2008 (PDT)
-'''JA:''' Okay, let's talk about that.  I probably need to start by trying to articulate my inklings, irklings, or reservations about the term.
-* When I hear "crowdsource" it calls to mind one of the prime directives of critical thinking, to wit, "Consider The Source!"
-** That leads me to ask:
-*** Is the crowd the source?
-*** If we mean that the crowd is the source, is that a Good, a Bad, or an Indifferent thing?
-'''JA:''' That's about as far as I get for now.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 13:52, 8 October 2008 (PDT)
-'''PW:'''  The whole idea of "crowd sourcing" as it relates to Wikis is a fallacy.  First of all, not everyone has access to a computer and of those that do, not everyone is necessarily able to forcibly vehicle their point of view effectively against the "Voice of the Crowd".  The demographics of Wikipedia already show the inherent problems with calling what is produced "the sum of all human knowledge" as there are clearly elements of the subset of humans who are not present in the demographics of Wikipedia. So, what is happening in Web 2.0 is clearly not "crowd" sourcing, but the re-enforcement of the idea that "we are those who define reality".  It's a celebration of "Us", which implies a "them" and the division that this implies.  The WP:En experience serves very well as a test case for this hypothesis. So, perhaps the "crowd sourcing" angle is too limitative and not the entire phenomenon?
+==Now Is The Wiki Of Our Discontent==
-==The Importance of Being Nathan==
+===The 1st Part of the Discontention===
-'''NR:''' I actually do not have two of the things that you mention (I've expanded on this via e-mail).  Anyway, that's a better idea for a domain name. It's more descriptive in terms of what the site would actually do. I don't know what I was thinking, really. I also agree, it's probably not possible (or prudent) to use "Wikipedia" as part of the domain name.  —&nbsp;[[User:Nathan|<span style="color:#3971DE">'''Nathan'''</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Nathan|<span style="color:#3971DE">'''talk'''</span>]])</sup> <sub>/ <em>22:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)</em></sub>
+JA: There is a fundamental social wrong that hides at the core of Wikipedia, a wrongness that is complicit with the worst of its content, but far more its cause than its effect.  We need to get at that underlying wrongness if we are going to comprehend, much less remediate, the problematic phenomena that we find in the Wikipedia domain.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 09:12, 12 October 2008 (PDT)
-'''PW:'''  Nathan, I don't think that this has to be so complicated.  We can trace you to a real person and it's obvious that you are indeed that person.  That's fine by me.
+JA: That is one of the reasons why I continue to have reservations about taking the concepts of "crowdsourcing" and "user-generated content" as a basis for our critique of Wikioid phenomena.  Doing that only plays into the dodge of content-blindness (analogous to snow-blindness) that keeps so many would-be critics running around in circles of futility until they get frostbyte and die in the drifts.  So let's watch out for that.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 09:22, 12 October 2008 (PDT)
-'''NR:''' Okay, that works then. —&nbsp;[[User:Nathan|<span style="color:#3971DE">'''Nathan'''</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Nathan|<span style="color:#3971DE">'''talk'''</span>]])</sup> <sub>/ <em>17:51, 9 October 2008 (UTC)</em></sub>
+BK: To my mind, the architectural error in WMF-sponsored projects is that Jimbo adopted an inappropriate regulatory mechanism for an educational enterprise.  Jimbo adopted and maladapted the Hammurabic Method of Social Regulation which (I claim) is a monumental and tragic error.  The primary tool of governance (blocking and banning) corresponds to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Attainder Bill of Attainder] &mdash; a corrosive, ill-conceived, and ill-advised regulatory device.  It was [http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User_talk:Moulton#Midwifing_Epiphanies_Since_the_Dawn_of_Consciousness problematic when Hammurabi defined] it some 3750 years ago, and it remains problematic today. Whoever came up with that foolish idea should go jump in the lake.  —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 11:16, 12 October 2008 (PDT)
-==Suggest we move to the "article"==
+JA: Thanks for writing a short paragraph.  That encourages me to try and work through it bit by bit.
+# Yes, the fundamental social wrong is a built-in feature of the social-technical architecture, or "SocWare", for short.  And the buttons for blocking and banning are certainly a big part of it.
+# Yes, the fundamental social wrong might be called a bad case of Hammer-Rabies gone viral, but I don't think that's the be-all end-all of it.
-'''GK:''' Might I suggest that we move from "thoughtful conversation mode" here on the Discussion page, over to the wiki-mode "Article" page.  Let's craft a collection of principles and ideas that we all can live with, and once we get to that point, we can decide on exactly how to execute.  If we start to see "edit wars" on the Article page, even among us friends, then that will itself be an indicator that our ideas are not on a level-set.
+JA: I think that we have to keep asking the question &mdash; If the SocWare is so maladapted to the aims of Education And Information, and yet Wikipediots persist in promoting it, then what is the SocWare well-adapted to do?  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 11:40, 12 October 2008 (PDT)
-'''JA:''' For reasons I will tell you about off-line, my mind and time are a bit scattered right now, and I probably won't be up to careful  analysis or sustained discussion for another week or so.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 07:07, 9 October 2008 (PDT)
+BK: The Hammurabic Method of Social Regulation (including the specific version of it adopted by Jimbo) is optimally adapted to sustain a [http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User_talk:Moulton#Drama_Engines Drama Engine].  —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 13:05, 12 October 2008 (PDT)
-'''GK:''' We'll miss you, but we fully understand, Jon.  This is only "web kvetching", you know, and should be toward the bottom of all our priorities!
+JH: Hammurabic code like this one &hellip;
-==A word from Joe==
+<blockquote>
+If any one bring an accusation against a man, and the accused go to the river and leap into the river, if he sink in the river his accuser shall take possession of his house. But if the river prove that the accused is not guilty, and he escape unhurt, then he who had brought the accusation shall be put to death, while he who leaped into the river shall take possession of the house that had belonged to his accuser.
+</blockquote>
-WR, in my humble opinion, is just extension of the WP thought police and arbcom, and such has lost sight of it's mission.  WR is now, just an apologist for WP and  a haven for the miscretin wikipeidiot admins and other power drunk punks, who's respect for others and rule of law is non existent.  WP is a Canker Sore on the internet and, in my simple opinion, can not ever be reformed.  Wikipedia must be dismantled, it's tax exempt status, revoked and the servers, which houses WP purge of the stinking Cancerous mess of wikipeida and it's lies, mis-information, and virtual altar to the tin god Jimbo, the magnificent.[[User:Joehazelton|Joehazelton]] 22:52, 9 October 2008 (PDT)
+JH: That not very helpful &hellip; I would suggest some thing more simpler, like the golden rule and the 10 commandments.  [[User:Joehazelton|Joehazelton]] 16:25, 12 October 2008 (PDT)
-== A word from Blissyu2 ==
+JA: Moulton, I cannot tell if you are using the word "drama" in the ordinary sense of the word or in line with the way that Wikipediots abuse the term, but you seem to be saying that the Wikipedia System is good at producing this "drama" and that Wikipediots keep cranking their engine because they desire this "good".  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 20:05, 12 October 2008 (PDT)
-My main criticism of Wikipedia is now and has always been the ability for Wikipedia to change truth on important issues.  On many very important issues there are multiple viewpoints that must be expressed in order to get an accurate perspective, and it is impossible for anyone to speak or write about them without major bias.  Trying to remove the bias leads to removing the factual aspects of the case.  Because Wikipedia aims for Neutral Point of View, they forbid experts to comment on topics, which leads to a lot of idiots writing dumb articles.  On top of that, experts do secretly edit articles, and secretly control them, to pervert the article.  What really should happen is that articles are owned by experts.  If an article cannot be written by just one person, then multiple competing articles should exist to reflect all biases.  Biases are an important part of historical revelation.  I have written many times, and proven pretty conclusively I think, that Wikipedia's article on the Port Arthur massacre, a very important event in Australian history, and even moreso to myself personally, is written horrifically inaccurately.  Not only that, but the majority of people who have contributed to it have tried to present accurate information, but have been forbidden from doing so.  Because of Wikipedia's inaccurate display of that incident, the generally accepted truth of that issue has changed dramatically, with today as many as 20% of people accepting Wikipedia's version of events, as opposed to less than 5% 5 years ago.  On top of that, when Thebainer added the "Conspiracy theories" section, listing some of the least well known theories, and only mentioning their conclusions, rather than the facts that they are based on, combined with saying why they are not believed, he introduced what is called "disinformation".  It pretends that these are the only alternatives, when in reality they are not the only alternatives, and indeed represent a minority view even smaller than the minority view presented by Wikipedia.
+BK: I am using the term "drama" in the sense of [http://knol.google.com/k/barry-kort/cognition-affect-and-learning/3iyoslgwsp412/2#H5-The-Bardic-Arts dramaturgy] as a vehicle for embedding educational, cultural, or moral lessons within a dramatic literary storyline featuring [http://knol.google.com/k/barry-kort/cognition-affect-and-learning/3iyoslgwsp412/2#H7-Multi-Layer-Storybook-Character-Model interacting characters] (e.g. protagonist and antagonist).  It is my thesis that Jimbo ''unintentionally'' devised an efficient [http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User_talk:Moulton#Drama_Engines drama engine] by hamhandedly misdesigning Wikipedia's social regulatory mechanism.  As I see it, Jimbo's [http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Original+Logic+Error%22+HOLE fundamental mistake] was adopting [http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User_talk:Moulton#Midwifing_Epiphanies_Since_the_Dawn_of_Consciousness blocking and banning] as the [http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User:Cormaggio/Moulton%27s_block#Comments_or_questions_for_Mu301 principal tool of governance], thus reprising a cyberspace reification of the classical (i.e. biblical) [http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User_talk:Moulton#Worrying_About_Wheel-Warring_in_Our_WikiWoe drama of scapegoating and alienation]. —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 05:50, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
-Wikipedia Review was a good concept, and I think that we can see that in most respects it worked well.  The main failure, in my opinion, is in a lack of loyalty.  Igor Alexander, the founder of the site, was banned from his own site when we moved.  On top of that, then we had all of the original founders, except for Selina, banned from the site, in addition to more than half of the people who have ever held administrator status.  Indeed, we have only had perhaps 5 or 6 people ever banned that were NOT administrators or people with power on the site.  This reeks of a power struggle, and is quite frankly not on.  This kind of thing shouldn't exist anywhere.  Perhaps more could have been done to try to stop it, but it is too late now, and I felt like I couldn't do anything more at the time.
+JA: It sounds like you are trying to use the word "drama" in the ordinary sense and trying to avoid abusing it in the Wikipidgin Manner of Speaking (WP:MoS), but I don't get the sense that you are being consistent in that attempt.
-Furthermore, a second major problem is that Wikipedia Review began to focus more on popularity and less on integrity.  Ever since that director came on (Col Scott, I forget his real name), Wikipedia Review has focussed on what would make them look good rather than what was the right thing to do.  For ages we were accused of doing the wrong thing, but then we started to actually do it.
+JA: At any rate, your Theory Of The Archdrone's Mind (BK:TOTAM) that ascribes unintentionality to the design of the hive is a theory that I view with suspicion.  The way I see it, BK:TOTAM is nothing but a variation on the theme of WP:AGF.  As such, I have to regard it as naive beyond measure.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 06:52, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
-Poetlister should never have been promoted, because Poetlister was never regular enough to warrant it.  Poetlister was also the subject of a criticism, hence a poor choice as administrator.  Guy perhaps should have been promoted, but they should not have considered both at once, since they were speaking with one voice.  Whether they were separate people or not, it is not on.
+BK: I'm using "dramaturgy" in the sense of the [http://knol.google.com/k/barry-kort/cognition-affect-and-learning/3iyoslgwsp412/2#H5-The-Bardic-Arts Bardic Arts], full stop.  It is my thesis that Jimbo did ''not'' conscientiously and deliberately set out to create the Internet's most popular [http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User_talk:Moulton#Drama_Engines Drama Engine] when he conceived, adopted, and blessed the emerging social dynamics of Wikipedia.  —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 10:20, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
-I do not think that using real names is the answer.  That was tried on Citizendium, and it doesn't really make things any better.  In the end, if you use your real name on the internet, it just means that the anonymous millions will have more things to smear your name with.  When you are talking about criticism and such, you are putting your name out there, and it is dangerous to list your real name.
+JA: People sometimes use the word "drama" to denote any series of actions and events that are filled with emotion and suspense, as in "the dramatic developments on Wall Street this week".  Wiki-Pidgin speakers use "drama" as a wiki-pejorative term that means pretty much the same thing as every other wiki-pejorative term, to wit, "We No Like It".  But you seem to be saying that you do not intend those looser usages.
-Besides which, I have known many incidences when people have used what they claimed were their real names, but they actually weren't.  It doesn't actually help that situation all that much. [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] 04:40, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
+JA: Sometimes people use the word "drama" to describes any kind of Amateur Participatory Improv Psychodrama (APIP).  Maybe you are using the word that way, but for my part I do not call that Art.
-:It seems to me, Blissyu2, that you are looking for a site which is more amenable to ''what most people would call'' conspiracy theories than is Wikipedia, or the Wikipedia Review. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I don't think this is anything like what Greg has in mind.[[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] 22:31, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
-::Given that you lied in your Poetlister investigation [http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dpqbn5p_0dvbzkzgt], I don't think that you have any credibility whatsoever.  As I said, the main issue with Wikipedia Review was that it was overrun and that the people who control it now had nothing to do with it being created.  This is the issue, not anything to do with conspiracy theories or not.  While you're at it though, why don't you fix up your lies in your "investigation"? [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] 16:37, 11 October 2008 (PDT)
+JA: Dramaturgy, in the sense of the Dramatic Arts, demands Dramaturges, in the sense of Dramatic Artists.  These include playwrights, actors, directors, producers, stagecraft artists and managers, and so on and so forth as the credits roll.  Are you seriously trying to tell us that you are crediting Jimbo & Company with that sort of Art?  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 11:02, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
-:::Blissy, do you have a link to a page providing the variances and discrepancies between Proabiv's account of the PoetGuy Caper and your account?  —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 17:25, 11 October 2008 (PDT)
+BK: In concert with the Bardic Arts and [http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/User:Moulton/Mu Barsoom Tork Associates], I've published a song about it:  [http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User_talk:Moulton#Jimbo.27s_Unintended_Drama_Engine Hey JUDE] —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 11:04, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
-::::The above link proves it conclusively enough (unless the link doesn't work for you).
+BK: Jon, I think you are conflating a dramatic ''production'' with a drama ''engine''.  Think of a drama engine as the analog of a physics engine in a pinball game.  Jimbo gave the world a free-wheeling ''drama engine'' &mdash; a venue where arbitrary actors can don costumes and synthetic [http://knol.google.com/k/barry-kort/cognition-affect-and-learning/3iyoslgwsp412/2#H7-Multi-Layer-Storybook-Character-Model ''personas''] and engage in improvisational street theater with each other.  The result is a post-modern, pre-apocalyptic [http://underground.musenet.org:8080/utnebury/banshee.html theater of the absurd].  —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 14:14, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
-::::Proabivouac lied about my having created the Poetlister identity.  I invited Poetlister to use Classmates.com.  I did not create the page.  Further, Classmates.com is a social networking site, like MySpace, that is meant to let you contact people you used to go to school with (it is quite good - you should try it).  It isn't, as he implies, a way to create a fake identity.  It doesn't even come up in Google.  Proabivouac has been aware of the mistake for over a month, and has refused to change it.  Proabivouac is aware that thousands of others have lied about me based on his lie, and that it is causing me significant real life problems.  Proabivouac is fully aware that he could change it to a more correct statement and that it would not in any way change the Poetlister investigation - all it would do would be to stop the rubbishing of my name.  I think, therefore, that rather than Proabivouac being interested in trying to expose truth, he is only interested in smearing my name.
+JA: Thanks for finally admitting that you are NOT using the word "drama" in the ordinary sense of the word but more in line with the way that Wikipediots abuse the term.  "Drama Engine" is a neologism that you just made up, so of course the notion of a drama engine cannot figure in the ordinary meaning of the word "drama".  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 19:06, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
-::::As for the other issues, the fact of the matter is that Proabivouac doesn't prove anything.  His links don't prove what he claims that they prove.  The one and only thing that he proved was that the Taxwoman photo was used by a member of The boudoir.  That link that proves that has now been removed.  None of the other claims are backed up at all.  They might be true, but they might not.  This is the issue.
+<blockquote>
+<p>Dear Abbie,</p>
-::::As for Poetlister being Taxwoman, we knew that from September 2007, when Encyclopaedia Dramatica proved it.  I proved that evidence on Wikipedia Review, and on ED, in September 2007.  I was slammed for it.  Why am I now being slammed amidst lies started by Proabivouac that the opposite is true?
+<p>I tried shouting "theatre" in a crowded fire but it did not improve ''The Review'' &mdash; and then the Firemen dashed on the scene and
+I discovered that my Drama Engine was no match for their Fire Engine.</p>
-::::Proabviouc is not to be trusted.  Someone who would lie on a major incident, and use it to smear someone else's names, is not someone who you wanted involved in a thing like this. He has had over a month to fix his errors, and has refused.  Proabviouc needs to present his real name so that he can be sued for defamation of character. [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] 19:10, 11 October 2008 (PDT)
+<p>Just call me,</p>
-== [[Directory:The_Wikipedia_Point_of_View | The Wikipedia Point of View]] ==
+<p>All Wet @ Fahrenheit 451</p>
+</blockquote>
-Just to add my two pennies - we already have [[Directory:The_Wikipedia_Point_of_View | The Wikipedia Point of View]] here on MWB.  The idea was not a forum, but something more like a Wiki, where problems with Wikipedia articles are carefully documented with hard links and references.  I started it because permalinks are hard to maintain in a forum.  Plus almost any subject in Wikipedia Review has a long history that its proponents understand too well to explain to outsiders, meaning most of it (e.g. Naked short selling) is incomprehensible.
+BK: Jon, I did not coin the term "drama engine" as you can discover by reading about [http://www.google.com/search?q=first+generation+drama+engine first generation drama engines], lame though they may be for the purposes that game designers have in mind.  Jimbo's Unintended Drama Engine (JUDE) operates at what I imagine would correspond to a third generation drama engine in the game world.  —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 21:59, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
-It is a personal effort and will remain so, but there is a need for something that explains in a reasonable and sober way to an outsider what is happening at Wikipedia.  Rather like Encyclopedia Dramatica but without the dramatics and, er, the pictures.  [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 05:58, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
+JA: I apologize for accusing you of Originality, but your esoteric gamer-tech geek-world reference, however amusing, only serves to prove my point that the new-fangled notion of a "drama engine" forms no part of what enters the mind of the average person in the street when he or she hears the word "drama".
-== Peccadildonic Pastimes ==
+JA: But let us put the definition of drama aside for now.  You are trying to reduce the bardic and dramatic arts to a kind of Accidental Stage Setting (ASS).  And that is nothing short of absurd.  It is true that people can learn from a climactic absurdity, but what they must learn is the absurdity of the collective premiss.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 02:46, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
-What I have observed in the Wikisphere (which includes the many miscreantic outcasts on W-R) is an abundance of unproductive venting on issues running to obscure peccadilloes for which the corresponding emotional state is oftimes utterly inscrutable.
+BK: I don't think we are all that far apart, Jon. I've been thinking about the use of dramaturgy in education for many years now, and I've been following the snail's pace at which the game culture has incorporated dramaturgy into the design of games.  What I noticed about WMF sites is that, while Jimbo did not intentionally set out to craft a post-modern theater of the absurd, that's what WP and sister sites have evolved to become.  A secondary question is what (if anything) the participants in Jimbo's Masquerade Ball are learning through their participation in that happenstantial psychodrama stage.  [[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 10:35, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
-If there is an unmet need for peripatetic peccadildonic palavering, perhaps we should think about how to organize that ongoing orbital oration into a more functional process that converges to some insightfully innovative solutions to our cumulative collection of complementary complaints.
+JA: If all you mean by "drama" is something like "the affective element in education and inquiry", then that has been a factor in my studies for as long as I can remember, but I think it would be a whole lot clearer just to say the latter.  I have participated in the mystiques of enough psychodrama and street theater to know the agonies, the thrills, and the uses thereof, but I do not call that Drama in a literal literary sense.
-Otherwise, all we are doing is pouring ''kvetchup'' on our refried brains.
+JA: It is possible to learn from almost any experience that we undergo &mdash; adverse, artful, or otherwise &mdash; but we have to be capable of reflecting on the experience to the point where we can extract the lesson, and that is a step beyond mere mystified participation in absurdity.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 11:18, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
-[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 07:28, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
+BK: What I've been thinking about is the artful construction of a custom-crafted drama optimally designed to [http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/User:Moulton/Caprice midwife an epiphany] of a particular individual at a particular juncture in their lifelong learning journey.  I am thinking of stories like Peter Falk as the grandfather reading the story of the ''Princess Bride'' to his grandson, or ''Arabian Nights'' or ''Aesop's Fables'' or the Parables of Jesus or [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9U_d7-V8s4 this ditty by Bing Crosby].  —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 12:56, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
-==Joe the outcast of WR responds to elitist dribble mongers==
+JA: I'm not sure I understand all this "Hallo, Jude!" stuff you keep going on about, but it begins to dawn on me that it's you, you, my friend, who are in the grip of some Will To Drama that you'd fain e-body in, oh, let's say, Barry's Intense Drama Engine (BIDE), and that you project this project of yours on your favorite local authoritarian, Jimbo Wales, who knows it not.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 06:08, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
-Well well, the problem I have is I don't have a fine HARVARD or other ELITE education from some far away remote tower of IVORY were they shit bricks of marble.
-I am a simple fellow, whose values revolve around basic truths that
+===The 2nd Part of the Discontention===
-you don't LIE, CHEAT or STEAL and the Golden Rule... and you should be held to account for these truths.
-The problem is meely-mouth, double talkers, dismiss this, in favor of moral relativism, where every person is a god and no one is bound to "higher moral authority" so evolves a culture of elitism and ends justified the means and a cesspool like wikipeida (where, as in Orwell, black is white, and 1+2=4 and where consensus can generate justification for the lies and bullshit for the sake of "consensus" and "harmony"  but in the end, you get a Tyranny of the Majority and the evil you get with it.
+JA: By way of marshaling our critical resources on behalf of the end in view, let me recall the charge that I sounded at the top of this topic, after which I will sort through the intervening discussion in a game try at racking up the points of agreement and disagreement.
-For me,  wikipeida is full of degenerate and morally bankrupted, liars, plagiarizers, slanderers, and other petty criminals and intellectual bunko artists, which, My CRUDE, UNEDUCATED AND HUMBLE OPINION, makes it a moral imperative that wikipeida is called to task, in the REAL WORLD and HELD TO ACCOUNT, IN THE REAL world and NOT HIDE, LIKE SNIVELING  COWARDS, and MEELY MOUTH WORMS, to the destruction of peoples works, ideas and reputations, on the sheer whims of uncontrolled power tripping, basement dwelling pill bugs.
-[[User:Joehazelton|Joehazelton]] 09:07, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
-:Joe, your passion is always inspiring to me.  I hope that I haven't given the impression that all contributors to this new project should have impressive degrees or haughty credentials.  Rather, all I ask is that the criticisms be formulated in a journalistic style of reporting that would be welcoming to an "outside" observer in the field of journalism or academia.  If we go the route of the wiki, in fact, other contributors would even be able to help collaborate with those who are heavy on passion and justice, but light on citation and narrative.  I tend to agree that there exists a surplus of sniveling cowards and mealy-mouthed worms on Wikipedia.  But, it's our job to make that clear to neutral third parties, without coming off as misguided invective.  For example, when JzG plagiarized the content of the original Arch Coal article, it was at least acceptable under the terms of the GFDL.  But when, 15 months later, he deleted the original provenance of the article and then (elsewhere) claimed that this was ethically correct, being that his version was supposedly written ''ab initio'', that was a lie, and it was an act of sniveling cowardice, for which he has still not apologized, even though it would be simple to do so.  Documenting activity like that will be an important part of helping the uninformed bystander to come to realize the passion and the justice which you wish to convey.  -- [[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 10:49, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
-::Those I address,will know which side of the issue they are on... obviously, not all to this place are in the ivory towers, as I described.  Now, as a platform to carry out my war on wikpeida, that I tip my hat to you, the management of this place.  I hope you will respect the concept of free speech were the true test of free speach is to protect speech we don't like.  (I a a firm believer in this concept, which is alien to the Wipedidiots and those at WR.... is summarized in a Robert Bolt play.. "A Man of All Seasons"
-----
-:::William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
-:::Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
-:::William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
-:::Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's.
-----
-::In other words, you protect speech and options and not censor them, even those that you don't like or consider good, not for the protection of the other guy you hate, but to protect your own right!!! Because without the rule of law and it's fair application, you have a situation, LIKE on the Wikipeida where Thuggery and Tyranny of the Majority and where truth gets thrown out with the rule of the mob.
+<blockquote>
+JA: There is a fundamental social wrong that hides at the core of Wikipedia, a wrongness that is complicit with the worst of its content, but far more its cause than its effect.  We need to get at that underlying wrongness if we are going to comprehend, much less remediate, the problematic phenomena that we find in the Wikipedia domain.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 09:12, 12 October 2008 (PDT)
+</blockquote>
-::My main passion is I'm now a running for City Console, for where I will have a impact on those who are in conflict with the ideas of [http://www.adamsmith.org/smith/won-intro.htm Adam Smith] and the notion that government is a regulator and not a participant or BIG Sugar daddy or sugar daddy to grown Adult, who should take responsibility for their life's and those life's for which they are responsible for.  This is in contrast to most that run wikpeida  you see the mess they cause.
+====Points of Consensus====
-::Any rate I'm involved and have influence with two congressmen, and with many state and local office holders and I make sure all of the know what wikipeida is all about.
+* Although we continue to have difficulty identifying it, or even thinking of an apt name for it, many of us seem to agree that there is a fundamental social wrong that hides at the core of Wikipedia's Social-Technical Architecture (STA).  Unless we can diagnose this bug with more exactness, attempts to "fix Wikipedia", whether in-place or in a new place, are most likely going to continue being futile.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 05:36, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
-::Also, I have, as well as my friends, submitted to IRS Complaint forms regarding its 501 (3)(c) status, which is in  bold face violation of said statute.  Now, it may take me 20 years, but I will see Wikipeida dead as it's provides the very tools for it's own destruction, the fools that administer wikipeida are to stupid and arrogant to know where the bolt from the blue will come from and they will not be immune...see [http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/1008081palin1.html some who thought they were above the law in cyberspace...the hammer of US:law][[User:Joehazelton|Joehazelton]] 15:57, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
+* We seem to agree that the social sanctions known as "blocking" and "banning", as implemented in the corresponding social powers and technical utilities, or something about the distribution of those powers and utilities, are telling indicators of the fundamental social wrong in Wikipedia.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 05:52, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
-===Expectation of quality===
+====Points of Dissensus====
-Greg, you wrote: "Rather, all I ask is that the criticisms be formulated in a journalistic style of reporting that would be welcoming to an "outside" observer in the field of journalism or academia."
-:I wholeheartedly support this. This has not been entirely absent at the Review, but the format doesn't support it, and some of the senior members of the site seem uninterested in it. Part of this would mean vetting allegations before they're publicized, and excising material which falls short of our standards, which would leave many contributors to the Review with little to say. Of course, posters might upgrade their standards - you never know if you don't ask. Wikipedia Review lacks this expectation of quality.[[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] 16:01, 10 October 2008 (PDT) (Timothy Usher)
+* Hard to pin down, but something about the character of drama and the role of drama, however cast, in the Wikipedia System.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 06:20, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
-::Kato has disclosed to me two of the principles that he appreciated learning from me over the past year on W-R.  One was the concept of a "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind#Interpersonal_understanding_of_mental_states theory of mind]" (accurately recognizing and identifying such mental states as beliefs, intentions, desires, motivations, and pretensions of knowledge of another person).  Another is the scientific concept of evidence-based reasoning. In journalism (as in mainstream science) we adopt evidence-based reasoning to avoid publishing ungrounded flights of fancies (e.g. hypothesized conspiracy theories) as if they were established facts grounded in scientifically reviewed evidence, analysis, and reasoning.  Furthermore, given any alternate hypothesis that purports to overthrow the null hypothesis, we conscientiously employ the protocols of the Scientific Method to ''falsify'' all new hypotheses.  It is upon consistent ''failure to falsify'' a novel hypothesis that it eventually emerges as a useful model that consistently makes reliable predictions.  Anything less than that results in a ''constructed reality'' that mimics a cyberspace soap opera rather than the real world that we all jointly inhabit.  —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 17:41, 11 October 2008 (PDT)
+====Points for Expansion====
-== Blog ==
+JA: I am out of time for pursuing this right now, but one of the points that we need to probe a little further has to do with the ''function'' of blocking and banning within the cult(ure) in question.  Words like ''alienation'', ''excommunication'', ''exile'', ''scapegoating'', and ''shunning'' have been used in the past.  What is really going on is not any form of physical transportation, but a filtering out of messages from identifiable sources, a form of "killing the message", if not exactly the messenger.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 07:50, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
-I hope that there will be a blog or at the very least an RSS feed. I don't have the time or inclination to participate in a forum like the one described (and I'm definitely not the type of member you're looking for anyway) but I'd be pretty interested in reading the 'highlights' or at least a summary of current good topics or whatever. Just my $0.02 (~£0.01 in real currency). [[User:Naerii|Naerii]] 09:36, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
+JA: There really are such things as noise, spam, and vandalism, and so there are legitimate reasons for filtering and ignoring certain classes of messages.  When the functions of filtering and repression become dysfunctional for any error-controlled system, however, is when valid feedback about the system and its environment is habitually being ignored.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 07:50, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
-:An RSS feed can be a good thing for a relatively "paced" format like a blog, but it would be hell on a wiki.  MyWikiBiz (just by example), does have a Feedburner e-mail service that can update you daily on "Recent Changes" here.  That's sort of useful, if you're really a frequent visitor/user, but fairly annoying if you were a journalist or academic.  Here it is, in case you're interested:
-::If you would like a daily e-mail notice of what has been created or updated on MyWikiBiz.com, just complete this form.
-<embed>
-<form style="border:1px solid #ccc;padding:3px;text-align:center;" action="http://www.feedburner.com/fb/a/emailverify" method="post" target="popupwindow" onsubmit="window.open('http://www.feedburner.com/fb/a/emailverifySubmit?feedId=2001427', 'popupwindow', 'scrollbars=yes,width=550,height=520');return true"><p>Enter your email address:</p><p><input type="text" style="width:140px" name="email"/></p><input type="hidden" value="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~e?ffid=2001427" name="url"/><input type="hidden" value="MyWikiBiz" name="title"/><input type="hidden" name="loc" value="en_US"/><input type="submit" value="Subscribe" /><p>Delivered by <a href="http://www.feedburner.com" target="_blank">FeedBurner</a></p></form>
-</embed>
-:--[[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 10:41, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
-==Old-Fangled Email List==
+BK: See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Attainder Bill of Attainder], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immurement#In_literature Immurement], and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safeword Safeword].  —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 13:36, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
-JA: Looking back over my first decade on the Internet &mdash; last millennium I still had a life &mdash; I think it's safe to say that I had vastly more productive interactions and layed down far more productive content in the process on my old email discussion groups.  I know a guy, er, dude, who might be interested in this general topic area and be able to set one up PDQ.  Any coherent content that we actually produce could then be munged from the archive into a wiki or whatever.  Any takers?  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 11:08, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
+==Made Glorious By This Sum Resummed A Fork==
-:Personally, I find e-mail discussion lists to be a real drag on my already-swamped in-box, and I loathe the idea of "munging" content from one format to another.  Seeing what is going on right now in my absence on WR is also leading me to believe that "message board" might not be the way to go.  Seriously, I'm thinking wiki may be best, for all of its hated "ownership" issues, it provides the READER the most engaging way to have access to content (and content tangents) all at once.  If we establish clear rules on dividing "owned" space versus "communal" space (followed by rigorous "locking" procedures), I think the result will (finally?) be a truly authoritative, reliable, and vibrant reference compendium for all who wish to know "what's wrong with today's Internet".  Just my opinion.  Still musing. -- [[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 12:57, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
-::Over on C2.com, the original wiki, they discuss the concepts of a [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ContentCreationWiki Content Creation Wiki] and a [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ContentClassificationWiki Content Classification Wiki].  A Content Creation Wiki might work, so long as the initial participants were careful to educate people on how they work differently from Content Classification Wikis like Wikipedia.  For those (like myself, actually), who prefer email, I assume there will be a way to dump every edit into a folder in my gmail account. [[User:Anthony|Anthony]] 13:19, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
-== Support ==
+JA: All in the fullness of time &hellip; [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 09:14, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
-Not sure what I can practically do at this point, but I want to chip in with a word of support on this (even though editing a wiki makes my skin crawl a little).
+===Dysfunctional Inquiry Programs (DIP's) : Slip Slidin' Away===
-I have a definite split between wanting to read and think seriously about Vacuousness 2.0, and being exasperated by the flood of wikichimps currently using WR as an extra talk page.
+JA: The phenomenon that I wish to address under this head is one that I noticed many years ago, one that I observed arising especially acutely in the W(P+R) context, and one that I tried to tackle under numerous heads at ''The Wikipedia Review'', but like every other topic that risks diversion from the WR Soap Opera In Regress Everlasting (WR:SOIRE), all of those inquiries fell like lead balloons on leaden ears.
-I'm also inclined to say that the more exposé sites, the better.  Wikitruth.info appeared to get a lot of information out at one time, though it seems to be stalled now.
+JA: ''Vide'' [http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=17951 Dysfunctional Inquiry Programs (DIP's) : Slip Slidin' Away].
-I plan to be a participant in any new forum that comes out of this discussion.
+JA: Maybe it was something I said?  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 14:40, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
-[[User:Geoff Wilson|Geoff Wilson]] 11:09, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
+BK: In my experience, the inquiry process fails when the would-be inquirer departs from rigorous skeptical inquiry by failing to examine all the evidence with a critical eye and by failing to reason in a coherent and scientific manner to valid conclusions and insights. —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 15:44, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
-:::AMEN... there needs to be a forum which the Concept of free speech, rule of law, and respect for the idea you fight bad speech with good speech and remove the idea of "GROUP THINK" and "THOUGHT CRIME" and "PC" A forum were ideas stand the test of augment with the ad humiumin non-sense of killing the messenger or the wikian idea of "SOCKPUPPET" is truly is offensive since you judge the idea and not the messenger.  WikiRewiew has lost it's way and has dropped the ball in favor if APPESMENT OF THE POWER DRUNK WIKIPEDIDOT ADMIN.
+<blockquote>
+<p>You know the nearer your destination</p>
+<p>The more you're slip slidin' away</p>
-A side message to those admin of wikipeida that read these words... I SPIT  ON  YOU and YOUR COWARDLINESS (This for Robert "Gamaliel" Fernandez, Mark A<sshole> "Raul654"Pellegrini, and my very local beer and new age ashram-ite cultist, Scott the "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Goethean "Goethean"  Zim..] ... IF YOU DON"T LIKE WHAT I SAY, COME HERE and FACE ME, TOE TO TOE, LIKE MEN instead like the SPINLESS WORMS you have shown your self all to be, by action and deed.
+<p>&mdash; Paul Simon
+</blockquote>
-Sorry for rants right now, due the fact I seethe with hate for liars, Cheaters, thief's,who steal people ideas and souls (reputations) and the bold fact Hypocrisy which runs unchecked and unchallenged.
+JA: The particular phenomenon that I'm talking about here occurs when all the right evidence and all the right reasoning lead a person right up to the door of what, by rights, would be the inescapable conclusion, and yet &hellip; and yet &hellip; the fear of losing a cherished illusion keeps that person from walking through that door.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 19:16, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
-[[User:Joehazelton|Joehazelton]] 16:27, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
-:Besides the very obvious hypocrisy of criticizing others for "ad humiumin" attacks, hostile and barely-literate screeds of this nature bring this page into disrepute. Accordingly, I propose removing them.[[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] 18:35, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
-::While I'm not at this time going to remove the rant-like comments, I am ''prepared'' to remove them.  I think that the arrival of Joe, and Blissy, and Moulton, and indeed Jon and myself, is a point of concern and of opportunity.  I will not participate in this new project if it is just another Internet free-for-all.  However, I also want it to be a chance for anyone who has the capability to contribute '''within our designated format and our agreed-upon guidelines''', to do so.  Lord knows, if you cannot or choose not to write in a fluid, understandable, journalistic manner, there are about a million other fora where you can write in the manner that you wish.  We who will assemble in this new forum have both an entitlement and an obligation to maintain the joint the way we want it maintained.  I think the parameters should be set by a small team (3 or 5 persons who are willing and able to put in the effort), and then they enforce the standards of content quality, contributor behavior, and drama suppression.  If that means this cannot be an "open" forum, so be it.  If that means "by invitation only" is the way to go, so be it.  I'd prefer to try that it be as open as possible, but that may not be workable.  Right now, we're just talking about possibilities, so that's why I'm not removing comments.  Thanks for listening; I hope I've got it sort of "right" for a good portion of you. -- [[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 20:35, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
+BK: Do you mean the inescapable conclusion that there is no hope for ''Homo Schleppians'' or Western Civilization because we lack the critical mass to evolve from a political culture to a scientific one?  —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 19:59, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
-:::Allowing people to contribute and get attached before banning them is a horrible idea. People don't get angry at publications to which they were never invited to contribute. It's unfair to someone to dangle before him the prospect of finally having a place where his voice can be heard, allow him to sink his time into it, and then stand in public judgment over him. So does Wikipedia creates its malcontents.[[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] 22:27, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
+JA: No<font size=7>,</font> I mean that there's very little hope for ''Some People'' until they ¡¡¡&nbsp;Wake&nbsp;Da&nbsp;&Phi;&upsilon;&kappa;&nbsp;&uarr;&nbsp;!!!  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 03:54, 16 October 2008 (PDT)
-::::Proabivouac, you're an arogant ass, who elected you to be a back seat wikipedidiot AssMin. If you don't like my screeds, then don't read them. [[User:Joehazelton|Joehazelton]] 23:18, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
+BK: Oh.  Well [http://www.google.com/search?q=Gurdjieff+Ouspensky Gurdjieff and Ouspensky] pretty much established that most people are sleepwalking their way through life.  [[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 07:51, 16 October 2008 (PDT)
-:::::Joe, upthread you wrote:
+==Future use of this page==
-<BlockQuote><BlockQuote><BlockQuote><BlockQuote><BlockQuote><BlockQuote><BlockQuote><BlockQuote><BlockQuote><Font Color=maroon>
-AMEN... there needs to be a forum which the Concept of free speech, rule of law, and respect for the idea you fight bad speech with good speech and remove the idea of "GROUP THINK" and "THOUGHT CRIME" and "PC" A forum were ideas stand the test of augment with the ad humiumin non-sense of killing the messenger or the wikian idea of "SOCKPUPPET" is truly is offensive since you judge the idea and not the messenger. WikiRewiew has lost it's way and has dropped the ball in favor if APPESMENT OF THE POWER DRUNK WIKIPEDIDOT ADMIN. </Font>
-</BlockQuote></BlockQuote></BlockQuote></BlockQuote></BlockQuote></BlockQuote></BlockQuote></BlockQuote></BlockQuote>
-:::::Among those notions, Joe, one stands out for me:  '''Rule of Law'''.
-:::::Do you have faith in the Rule of Law?  If so, why?
-:::::[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 15:09, 11 October 2008 (PDT)
-==When can we start?==
+I would like to encourage everyone using MyWikiBiz for various discussions to please adhere to a policy of "don't derail pages".  You are welcome to have conversations about the origins and ownership of Wikipedia Review, as you are welcome to have conversations about the identity of various cross-dressing British officials.  Just have these conversations on their own pages.
-I'm ready to stop posting to Wikipedia Review right now.  There are three or four things that I'm pissed off about, and this Greg/Selina conflict is a good straw to break the camels back.  You need to set this new forum up right now, like today or tomorrow.  Don't make the same mistake as the House of Representatives and fail to pass the bailout measure by the end of the day Monday.  Greg, you know my email address if you need any technical support.  [[User:Anthony|Anthony]] 13:29, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
-:Wow, this is a bit of a surprise to me.  I thought one of the failures of Wikipedia was that they set off to launch the project before really thinking out what they OUGHT to do for it to be successful in fulfilling the stated mission.  I feel like a "let's get this hammered out this weekend" approach would be ill advised, but... I'm also a spontaneous person at heart.  How do others feel about it?  We're still drawing in new people, so that's a sign (to me) that disgruntled WRers already "know" that they have a place to come, at least for the moment. Personally, I'd think a more reasonable target date for launch would be November 1 or something like that. -- [[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 14:01, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
+As for the future of the "new forum" that we've been discussing, I would like to draw everyone's attention to my current mindset, as [[Criticism_of_crowdsourcing#Announcement|expressed here]]. Thanks, everyone! -- [[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 16:22, 12 October 2008 (PDT)
-:: Very much against splitting the 'broad church' of Wikipedia Review with all its flaws and idiosyncracies.  As I said, I'm content with trying to document the abuse in a careful and well-sourced way, that a complete outsider, such as a journalist or adviser to the [[Sloan Foundation]] could pick up and read with interest or disgust.  [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 00:25, 11 October 2008 (PDT)
+==Wikipedia - why it needs a warning label==
-==Invitation-only==
+This is a work in progress, and I will try to improve it later, but you can read it if you like. http://catonine.virtue.nu/thoughts/wikipedia.html I tried to make it like Lir's one, but I hope on more important topics, with a more relevant worldview. [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] 02:26, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
+: Again, the way to do this is to create an article [[Port Arthur Massacre (Wikipedia)]] in which you can reference these claims and have other people investigate them.  This (if your claims are correct) would form part of a series of articles here which are ''about'' the Wikipedia articles, where there is evidence of bias or corruption in those articles. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 04:53, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
+::I have done that already [http://encyc.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_truth_changing] (it does probably need shortening however).  Of course, that is not the sole aspect of my web page, and only represents one example of one of the major problems.  There is no doubt in my mind that Wikipedia's article on that topic is, basically, a deliberately false article, as it does not, as an article as a whole, agree with either the recognised truth of the issue nor what the majority of people say, and deliberately false statements have been added to the article, primarily by Thebainer, with enormous control of the article, initially by Robert Merkel but later taken over by Thebainer.  I was going to put all of that in a nice readable format in that section on my web site criticism.  Again, however, that is just one aspect of what is wrong with Wikipedia, and just one example of truth changing.  SlimVirgin's truth changing of the Lockerbie bombing article on Wikipedia is just as notable.  Unfortunately, I am not an expert on the Lockerbie bombing so can't get into specifics of what she did, only that it is obvious that she did change truth. [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] 04:29, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
-I propose that participation be by invitation only. Good posters to the Review and elsewhere can be identified and invited. This way, people won't feel as bad for not being allowed to write for us: no one has to be "blocked" or "banned" (public disgrace and all that.) [[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] 17:14, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
+== Thank you ==
-:: I propose that you (Proabivouan) be banned, due to fact you want to create another wikipeidan like cesspool.  I don't think you have much to offer, except your wiki apologists  mumbo jumbo.  All you want Proabivouna is to create an elitist colony  of wikpedia cultist, embracing group think and thought crime and to leave behind any sense of fair play or respect for others and their points of view. You to much wraped up, as a Wikpeidiot, and can't fathom normal interaction and debate.  I wonder if you have sucked down way to much jimbo juice.  [[User:Joehazelton|Joehazelton]] 23:35, 10 October 2008 (PDT)
+I want to '''thank this page''' for underscoring in my mind the importance of the new criticism project to be a closed group of content generators, and for it not to begin in wiki format. -- [[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 08:50, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
-::::Joe, please exhibit your evidence and reasoning for the <s>fact</s> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind#Interpersonal_understanding_of_mental_states ''theory of mind''] that "Proabiviouac "wants to create another Wikipedian-like cesspool."  —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 15:15, 11 October 2008 (PDT)
+::MY suggestion for the format, your criticism should be in three parts..
-:::Yup.[[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] 02:31, 11 October 2008 (PDT)
+First part: A page, where any one may submit criticism, in public, in which all discuss it in a free for all, no holds bar discussion.  No rules less one... No attack on each other just their augment.
-:I agree that Proabivouac should not be included, as he has deliberately lied in a major investigation, and refused to correct his evidence after over a month of lying. [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] 19:04, 11 October 2008 (PDT)
+Second part: After a time, a committee, would review the article and decide to add/delete some or all of said article to to a protected part where it will stand.
-==Envoi==
+Third part, I would have a wide open form, "boogie check" no rules less Defamation, Liable.  All comers welcome, a thunderdrome of ideas regarding wikipeida so all have say.. from the crazy loon to the highest Ivory tower pigeon.[[User:Joehazelton|Joehazelton]] 15:55, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
-<pre>
+== Whatever happened from this? ==
-my customary rule about not arguing with cats and infants
-has now been extended to include wikipediots,
-and my definition of a wikipediot
-has now been expanded to include
-anyone who thinks that wikipedia
-can be fixed.
-i have no interest in a wikified version of wikipedia review
+Maybe I missed it, but 6 years later and I don't see a website created.  If you did make one, you certainly didn't tell me, nor did you write it here. I feel a bit upset at not being invited if you did create it. :( [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] ([[User talk:Blissyu2|talk]]) 13:06, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
-if it's going to include wikipediots and pseudonyms --
-life is just too short for that ...
+:P.S. I am not completely sure why, but the website I was using for about 10 years mysteriously disappeared.  Thankfully it was archived happily, so here is my Criticism of Wikipedia article: https://web.archive.org/web/20130310011711/http://catonine.virtue.nu/thoughts/wikipedia.html [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] ([[User talk:Blissyu2|talk]]) 13:09, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
-</pre>
-[[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 06:06, 11 October 2008 (PDT)